Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
- Thread starter George Wallace
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Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Can they genuinely be considered followers of Islam?
Halifax Tar
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Correction: Islamism wants to control you, IIRC.
Many followers of Islam, OTOH, do not and generally opposes Islamism.
Most followers of Islam, a group of about a billion people give or take, are happy minding their own business...
Islamism refers to a broad set of religious and political ideological movements that believe Islam should influence political systems, and generally oppose secularism. Islamists simply believe that their movement is either a corrected version or a revival of Islam, but others believe that Islamism is a modern deviation from Islam which should either be denounced or dismissed.
Islamism - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I'm not sure that separation is as distinct as that link makes it out to be.
Imagine that on a national scale. This is the left eating itself and its fantastic.
FSTO
Army.ca Fixture
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It makes me laugh that leftish folks could not see this a valid COA.
lenaitch
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Sure, but understanding the past - ours and others - helps to inform the present.
Some thing about 'those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it' and Einstein's definition of insanity.
Let's make brand new mistakes rather than repeating old ones.
A couple of other differences between then and now is there were few social supports, for anyone, and we didn't have a social mindset, supported by governments, that immigrants' pasts and differences should be celebrated and perpetuated.In any business transformation project there is a tipping point after which you can no longer put the genie back in the bottle. For better or for worse, immigration is a business transformation project. Think back to the turn of the 19th to 20th century. I expect that the then primary white cultures, English Scots and French were not pleased with the masses of Germans, Ukrainians, Italians, Poles and Russians entering by the boatload. Hell, in the 1960s we were still making disparaging jokes about Italians and Poles in Toronto.
As Europe's economies got better, less and less of the "masses" from there decreased, Canada had to look to other parts of the world. Ignoring the altruistic desires by some political parties for a multicultural society, it was the need to grow the population and the readily available desirable classes of immigrants from the third world that fulfilled that need.
The big difference that came with that is that while most of the European immigrants, like me, that arrived mostly wanted to integrate fully into the existing Canadian society. Being European made that easier (but not entirely easy - see Poles and Italians above). The newer crop that has come in over the last half century or so are more inclined to keep their cultural distinctions alive. The reasons for that are varied but religion, visible distinctions and deeply engrained cultural backgrounds have a lot to do with that.
Canada and America have always had to deal with not being a homogenous society and have had to deal with some radical elements within the immigrant group - think of support for the IRA; or communists fighting in Spain; or the FLQ; even the American revolution and Civil war have a cultural aspect to them.
I certainly have no answer as to how to stop violence as I think there will always be components of a "free and democratic society" who will turn to violence when their particular message is not accepted by the general public. One can absorb those acts and deal with them within the existing policing system. I'm actually more worried about how easy it is to manipulate the social media to influence large masses of all stripes into accepting false narratives. Once the masses are won over, critical analysis of the second and third order effects of a course of action is drowned out. While many focus on immigrants as a problem, the problem goes well beyond that into differences as to how the political structure of a country should work in order to benefit a given faction. This Transends mere cultural backgrounds. Currently, the flames of those differences are being fanned from inside and outside the country and will lead to more explosive violent acts then issues relating to some distant land.
People don’t want to look at the past because they can’t accept what they see and prefer the fairytales they were told.
Halifax Tar
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There's learning from the past and then there is what we are doing. A powerful segment of our population is self loathing and destructing.
Halifax Tar
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People are looking at the past, what we are experiencing is different reactions to it.
Some people don't believe they should pay for the sins of others. Some are self loathing and destructive.
Brad Sallows
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Other people look at the past and can see nothing but the outrages.
No disagreement.
FJAG
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The difference that you perceive is illusional. The immigrants coming to this country do so because they perceive a better life for them and their families here. (Why else would someone leave a nice warm climate to come to a country of six months of winter and six months of poor sledding?)
Are there some people in the group who hold extremist views not uncovered by the Canadian staff who vet them for immigration? Possibly. Are we now going to repatriate anyone of Russian heritage as a risk of being fifth columnist sleeper agents sent here by the Soviet collective in 1918? (Incidentally if you believe in this concept, I recommend John Sandford's novel "Hidden Prey." Sandford's Davenport "Prey" series are always a good read. This one had a great plot.). Or then there are the tens of thousands of Germans who came after both WW1 and WW2. Are they, like my father who did fight as a paratrooper for Germany, all sleeping Nazi agents intent on resurrecting the Third Reich?
Will Canada's culture change as a result of these recent waves of immigrants? Undoubtedly. It changed dramatically after the massive immigration waves of the original white colonists in the 16-1700s and again around 1900 which augmented/supplanted the existing French, English, Scottish by several European nationalities.
It's all too easy to ascribe malevolent intentions on a class of people amongst whom some bad actors exist. Especially if their skin colour doesn't match the preferred colour spectrum. Does Islam preach its superiority as a religion and the need to bring enlightenment to the masses? Sure. So does Judaism and Christianity. And despite protestations to the contrary, that movement has not burned out. And here I'll let the mic drop on the American state and federal governments who gleefully fund and do not supervise tens of thousands of Christian schools under various voucher programs).
I'll reaffirm my belief here: Deal with or punish the bad actors but do not ascribe their malevolence to the general class of people that they come from. If you are truly concerned about a particular group becoming dominant in society to the point that they want to make laws that directly or indirectly foists their religious beliefs on the country as a whole (and I for one am concerned but not just about the one denomination being singled out here and I'll spare you quoting Marx here) then make bullet proof laws that entrench secularism in government from top to bottom (including and especially the education system). Let's allow an individual religious freedom but at the same time stop kowtowing to and accepting religious or cultural practices by which someone can demean or treat as a second class human another individual.
FJAG
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Incidentally - not exactly on point but related - Jordan Peterson has dropped another lengthy article in the National Post on the state of his current situation.
QV
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I think one of the West's vulnerabilities is the huge influx of migrants from countries and regions that are not close allied nations. Should we get to a point where WWIII is on (Axis powers being Russia, China, Iran, NK, and their proxies), there is a high likelihood the western powers will be dealing with insurgent activity within their own borders causing havoc. Imagine the resources that would be needed to deal with thousands, even tens of thousands, of Axis power operatives stirring up trouble inside the borders of allied nations. For countries like Canada, this would be devastating... the US, with a rifle behind every blade of grass, not as damaging but a major issue nonetheless.
Is that too tinfoil?
Is that too tinfoil?
Halifax Tar
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The difference that you perceive is illusional. The immigrants coming to this country do so because they perceive a better life for them and their families here. (Why else would someone leave a nice warm climate to come to a country of six months of winter and six months of poor sledding?)
Are there some people in the group who hold extremist views not uncovered by the Canadian staff who vet them for immigration? Possibly. Are we now going to repatriate anyone of Russian heritage as a risk of being fifth columnist sleeper agents sent here by the Soviet collective in 1918? (Incidentally if you believe in this concept, I recommend John Sandford's novel "Hidden Prey." Sandford's Davenport "Prey" series are always a good read. This one had a great plot.). Or then there are the tens of thousands of Germans who came after both WW1 and WW2. Are they, like my father who did fight as a paratrooper for Germany, all sleeping Nazi agents intent on resurrecting the Third Reich?
Will Canada's culture change as a result of these recent waves of immigrants? Undoubtedly. It changed dramatically after the massive immigration waves of the original white colonists in the 16-1700s and again around 1900 which augmented/supplanted the existing French, English, Scottish by several European nationalities.
It's all too easy to ascribe malevolent intentions on a class of people amongst whom some bad actors exist. Especially if their skin colour doesn't match the preferred colour spectrum. Does Islam preach its superiority as a religion and the need to bring enlightenment to the masses? Sure. So does Judaism and Christianity. And despite protestations to the contrary, that movement has not burned out. And here I'll let the mic drop on the American state and federal governments who gleefully fund and do not supervise tens of thousands of Christian schools under various voucher programs).
I'll reaffirm my belief here: Deal with or punish the bad actors but do not ascribe their malevolence to the general class of people that they come from. If you are truly concerned about a particular group becoming dominant in society to the point that they want to make laws that directly or indirectly foists their religious beliefs on the country as a whole (and I for one am concerned but not just about the one denomination being singled out here and I'll spare you quoting Marx here) then make bullet proof laws that entrench secularism in government from top to bottom (including and especially the education system). Let's allow an individual religious freedom but at the same time stop kowtowing to and accepting religious or cultural practices by which someone can demean or treat as a second class human another individual.
I don't blame people for leaving shitholes, the places you only mentioned as having nice weather, to come here. We have/had a great thing going.
But you only have to look at the link @Jarnhamar posted to see what happens when critical mass of culture and politics swings.
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Nobody is saying that. What I was implying was to stop the back and forth about the past. We know what that is, we know how it was previously dealt with. However, the past is the past. It can't be changed. What we need to do is come up with ways to mitigate the current threat. That may take some out of the box thinking.
