Leave Policy – Christmas / Holidays [Merged]

[Stoker]

The Navy had this same issue 22 years ago when I served with them wrt tossing people on duty when they were already on authorized leave during the holiday period. The tendancy by them to actually include a statement on a "CF 100 LEAVE AUTHORIZATION" (that IS it's official name!!) denoting that the mbr themselves needs to find a replacement if they get tossed on duty after that same said leave pass is signed as "authorized leave beginning on date X and ending on date Y" ... tells me that this is systemic wrt the HMCS that we are talking about and that, despite growing older, they haven't moved very far forward wrt this particular issue.

Its obvious that when you did serve with the navy 22 years ago you're experience with them was less than ideal, I assure you that most ships do not fuc*k over the mbr. We're taking this kid to his word that this actually happened. In my experience what he/she said and what actually happened is often quite different. If this did indeed happen fine, it looks like Pat in Halifax has looked into this and probably has it straightened out. I'm sure bone head things do not only happen in the navy and is not a reflection of the navy as a whole.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Not starting a bun fight but I think its a bit unfair that the Navy gets singled out when we all know full well each element has its way at times.

I can honestly say all my "only in the RCAF" comments are never in a negative context.

But in my years spent in the Navy I never experienced anything as ridiculous as what the OP is experiencing.  4 ships and a sub, and I never experienced any holiday duty watch issues like this, I also never had to find my own duty watch replacement for the holiday period.  Leave over the holidays was sorted out prior to the duty watch list being out, and the days of 24,25,31 and 1 were usually volunteers.

 

[Harris]

I wonder if the leave issues mentioned throughout the thread are somewhat dependant on the rank of the aggrieved?  Certainly in my own experience the higher up the chain I got the less I had leave issues.

 

[armyvern]

Its obvious that when you did serve with the navy 22 years ago you're experience with them was less than ideal, I assure you that most ships do not fuc*k over the mbr. We're taking this kid to his word that this actually happened. In my experience what he/she said and what actually happened is often quite different. If this did indeed happen fine, it looks like Pat in Halifax has looked into this and probably has it straightened out. I'm sure bone head things do not only happen in the navy and is not a reflection of the navy as a whole.

Oh, I'm quite sure that my experience wasn't unique ... my father was a sea-hardened Naval man on that same coast. My brother is also on that coast currently.

It seems that some HMCS' still practice such as demonstrated by the inclusion of the caveat on their CF100s (if the situation isn't normal for that particular Unit, why the need to include that statement??) - that's telling in and of itself.

Glad though that PatinHalifax stepped in. Sad though that he actually had to.

 

[winnipegoo7]

Good day, I didn't expect to get so many replies.  My main concern was to know what my rights were and why things are done the way they are done.  I didn't intend for my previous post to sound like an emergency.

Things on my ship are run pretty well compared to the rest of the fleet, I think.  The holiday duty watch schedule was released around 20 November, I am duty 2 Jan and I also volunteered to stand duty 11 Jan for a mbr who will be out of area for the holidays. The leave period is 17 Dec to 13 Jan.  We were instructed to use all annual leave by the end of the year and also told that this is our last leave period this year due to our schedule.  I have 8 days annual remaining. My ship is away but I am on course so I have been making leave arrangements by email. I requested 3 leave passes. 1st before my first duty, 2nd between the duties and the 3rd for 13 Jan so all my annual would be used.  I received an email saying that it had to be all on 1 leave pass, so I replied saying that I shouldn't be on leave and on duty the same day, my boss then replied that he would attempt to put in 3 leave passes. My plan is to go home during the 1st leave pass.

I just wanted to know my rights and I think you all have answered them.
Thanks

 

[George Wallace]

Good day, I didn't expect to get so many replies.  My main concern was to know what my rights were and why things are done the way they are done.  I didn't intend for my previous post to sound like an emergency.

Things on my ship are run pretty well compared to the rest of the fleet, I think.  The holiday duty watch schedule was released around 20 November, I am duty 2 Jan and I also volunteered to stand duty 11 Jan for a mbr who will be out of area for the holidays. The leave period is 17 Dec to 13 Jan.  We were instructed to use all annual leave by the end of the year and also told that this is our last leave period this year due to our schedule.  I have 8 days annual remaining. My ship is away but I am on course so I have been making leave arrangements by email. I requested 3 leave passes. 1st before my first duty, 2nd between the duties and the 3rd for 13 Jan so all my annual would be used.  I received an email saying that it had to be all on 1 leave pass, so I replied saying that I shouldn't be on leave and on duty the same day, my boss then replied that he would attempt to put in 3 leave passes. My plan is to go home during the 1st leave pass.

I just wanted to know my rights and I think you all have answered them.
Thanks

Interesting that your "boss" seems to have the idea that you must submit only one (1) Leave Pass.  In recent years, every unit I have been in has insisted on at least two (2).  One (1) to cover the Leave being used prior to the end of the Current Calendar Year, and one (1) to cover the Leave in the New Calendar Year.  I would say that your unit/Ship would most likely have a similar policy.  At the same time, if you do have a Duty over a Leave Period, there is a form that one can fill out to have that Leave Period/Day cancelled and reinstated as unused so as not to penalize you the member in any way.  It looks to me that your boss is lacking in experience in these matters.

 

[aesop081]

In recent years, every unit I have been in has insisted on at least two (2).  One (1) to cover the Leave being used prior to the end of the Current Calendar Year, and one (1) to cover the Leave in the New Calendar Year. 

A policy that is equally retarded.

 

[armyvern]

A policy that is equally retarded.

Agreed.

 

[medicineman]

A policy that is equally retarded.

Especially since they're all from the same leave year...

MM

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Way to go George! : We had the Navy on the ropes Then you decide to make your part of the Army look silly also :facepalm:
Silly, silly man :brickwall:

 

[dapaterson]

Part of the "Two Leave Passes over Christmas" is because someone, somewhere, has declared that you can only have two short days on a single pass.  Since some places grant three stat, two special and four short over the Christmas / New Years period, two passes are reqeusted.  Of course, the restricton is 48 hours of short leave in a month, so as long as the short days appear as 2 in December, 2 in January, there shouldn't be a problem...

 

[Pusser]

Interesting that your "boss" seems to have the idea that you must submit only one (1) Leave Pass.  In recent years, every unit I have been in has insisted on at least two (2).  One (1) to cover the Leave being used prior to the end of the Current Calendar Year, and one (1) to cover the Leave in the New Calendar Year.  I would say that your unit/Ship would most likely have a similar policy.  At the same time, if you do have a Duty over a Leave Period, there is a form that one can fill out to have that Leave Period/Day cancelled and reinstated as unused so as not to penalize you the member in any way.  It looks to me that your boss is lacking in experience in these matters.

Actually, this is not as retarded as one might think.  On the surface, there is no reason to have one leave pass for one calendar year and another for the next, because December and January are always in the same fiscal/leave year.  HOWEVER, if the CO wishes to grant four days Short Leave, he can only do it if he/she is granting two in December and two in January (i.e. CO can only issue two days Short Leave per calendar month).  I'm not convinced it's absolutely necessary to use two leave passes in this scenario, but that is usually how it's done and seems to make the auditors happier (i.e. four days Short on one leave pass seems to raise red flags).

In terms of all the finger pointing here at the RCN, I have to say that I think this boils down to individual units and although not limited (it seems) to one ship, I can certainly say that I have never experienced problems like this in all my years on both coasts, so I hardly think it is a universal Navy problem.  I can also say with first hand experience that no one service, element, unit, formation etc, anywhere in the CF has a monopoly on bonehead moves or doing it right.  I can think of a number of situations where I've observed the Army through my Navy-coloured glasses with amazement and thought to myself, "no wonder the Army's p*ssed off!"  The fact is, everybody needs to do a better job sometimes. 

For the record, for three years in a row, before we had kids, my wife and I both volunteered to stand duty (in my case) or work (she worked at the hospital) on Christmas Day so that others could go home or be with their kids.  We simply expected (and were not disappointed) that others would do the same when our turn came up.

 

[Monsoon]

Part of the "Two Leave Passes over Christmas" is because someone, somewhere, has declared that you can only have two short days on a single pass.  Since some places grant three stat, two special and four short over the Christmas / New Years period, two passes are reqeusted.  Of course, the restricton is 48 hours of short leave in a month, so as long as the short days appear as 2 in December, 2 in January, there shouldn't be a problem...

The "somewhere" is the CF Leave Manual, chapter 9 (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/doc/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.pdf) and the restrictions are, "Short leave shall not be granted:"

" - More often than once each month;
" - For a period in excess of 48 hours;
" - Consecutively with any other period of short leave; and
" - In conjunction with retirement leave."

Arguably, the third restriction could be interpreted to mean that two sets of short leave can't be granted in the same leave period, even if the period straddles two months; alternately, it could just mean that you can't grant the last two days of one month and the first two days of the next month as short. Some units try to get around the issue by dividing Christmas/New Year's leave into two separate leave passes, but to my mind that doesn't really change the fact that it's one "leave period" (unless you're working in between the two).

If a unit CO thinks there's any legitimacy in the former interpretation of the policy, all they're doing by submittng two leave passes is trying to break the rules in a way that the leave clerk won't notice. The right thing to do if they don't buy that interpretation is for them to submit single leave passes with two non-adjacent sets of short leave and take the argument up directly with the BAdmO/OR IC/RSM/etc.

 

[CountDC]

hamiltongs you have nailed it the way it was at one unit I was with here in Ottawa.  You got 2 days short for the entire period and breaking it into 2 leave passes didn't change anything.  It was still viewed as consecutive leave periods and not allowed.  My understanding was that they had checked with the leave gods and that was the answer they received.

 

[SevenSixTwo]

Sorry to ressurect a thread but figured it was approriate to post here.

Statutory Holiday weekends. How does it work for these if you have been given a non operational (non punishment) duty over a statutory holiday long weekend in which, your CF-100 states no such duty and that you are allowed to travel to the location listed (over 1500km away).

 

[dogger1936]

Sorry to ressurect a thread but figured it was approriate to post here.

Statutory Holiday weekends. How does it work for these if you have been given a non operational (non punishment) duty over a statutory holiday long weekend in which, your CF-100 states no such duty and that you are allowed to travel to the location listed (over 1500km away).

Talk to your peer's see if anyone is in the area to take your duty. Fill out appropriate paperwork for change of duty if applicable. Talk to your SSM.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Well there's 2 ways to look at this.  The first is of course to see if a buddy will cover off for you, the other is (specifically if your leave pass was authorized by the CO/Delegate before routine orders was published) Is to force the units hand and have them recall you from leave.  That requires CO's involvement and is unlikely.  My 2 cents.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My  :2c: is that they CAN'T put you on duty after your leave pass is signed, until the CO cancels your leave.

If you are on leave, you are on leave. 

 

[PMedMoe]

My  :2c: is that they CAN'T put you on duty after your leave pass is signed, until the CO cancels your leave.

If you are on leave, you are on leave.

You'd like to think so, wouldn't you?  But I've carried a duty phone while on leave.......

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

You'd like to think so, wouldn't you?  But I've carried a duty phone while on leave.......

Shouldn't the QR&O state specifically that you cannot be both on duty and leave at the same time (this has been clarified but multiple JAG,s and presiding officers at summary trials)