Liberal Minority Government 2019 - ????

[Navy_Pete]

Sweet.


Do you think it's a big deal if a CO of a unit is having a change of command parade and decides that, contrary to a few rules, a company his wife is a board member on, who has received money from along with other family members, gets the expensive catering contract? When asked what other catering companies the CO checked with, since we need 3 quotes, the CO just shrugged his shoulders and said the other companies weren't able to provide the food. Except he can't even say what other companies he asked.

Would you sign off on that?

I'm not a Trudeau fan, but can't imagine how the PMO would have done an end around on the sole source contract. Something like this would have got worked up by PSPC, and while they are definitely prone to doing stupid things and play politics, can't really see that happening on a billion dollar contract without someone leaking it to the press before contract award.

Suspect there were a few public servants, with no real knowledge of the volunteer landscape that looked at it and recommended WE get the sole source contract. Something like this they CYA up the yingyang, so should come out if this was something PMO directed, but guessing it's more likely that someone did a crap job at due diligence and made a bad recommendation for this to be sole sourced, and it got skipped over without the normal due diligence because of tight timelines and abnormal work conditions.

If not, there should be a bunch of heads rolling; we get a hard time for trying to sole source contracts to buy parts from companies that are the sole owners for the IP for the widget, so abusing that pisses me off.

Still, the Cons are doing a pretty weak job at being the opposition and really not terribly impressed at how ineffective they are generally.

 

[PuckChaser]

Still, the Cons are doing a pretty weak job at being the opposition and really not terribly impressed at how ineffective they are generally.

They're not getting the traditional help from a non-partisan media. CTVNews.ca mobile site today had no mention of the WE Scandal. Only reference to Trudeau was his platitudes on some viral anti-mask allegedly racist video rant. Which also appears pretty suspect considering the $600M fund they were given recently.

 

[Remius]

Well the cbc has it...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-trudeau-we-charity-margaret-trudeau-alexandre-1.5645781


Regardless the opposition is pretty ineffective these days.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Well, Navy_Pete, of course it was worked up by PSPC.

I suspect it simply started with Cabinet telling whoever it concerned "If we are going to get all these unemployed people to volunteer and serve, we need someone to coordinate all that. Find someone who can."

Then PSPC did the work and came back with this recommendation for sole source contracting to WE.

So far, even though it may turn out to be a bad decision for taxpayers in the end, it's all legit.

However, seeing in the cabinet papers that the org recommended was WE, PM Trudeau and, probably, Finance minister Morneau only had to say right at the beginning of that item: "Look, I'm possibly in conflict on this one so I won't tell you what I think. I'll retire while you debate this point of the agenda and you can call me back when you are done: it's all up to you from here on. Clerck, please minute my absence and its reasons. Thank you." And then get up and leave the room until a decision is reached by the others.

And it is up to the Cabinet to decide - not public servants. If the Cabinet doesn't like the outlook of such a sole source contract, they were always free to tell PSPC to go back and re-think that one, or propose someone else, or open a quick tendering process, or just defer to a later date. The possibilities are endless.

But that didn't happen. Neither Trudeau nor Morneau abstained and excluded themselves, and they blame public servants for something that is truly up to them to decide, as opposed to propose.

 

[dapaterson]

No PSPC involvement.  It was not structured as a contract, rather, as a contribution agreement.  Different authorities for contribution agreements.

It was ESDC that recommended the structure, not PSPC.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It wasn't food but there was a similar incident about 15 years ago at a base I worked at in which a unit Admin O who was also the person responsible for awarding the contract decided to do a sole sourced contract for approx. $75,000 to his wife's business for artwork. 

And you don't think that was a big deal either?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm not a Trudeau fan, but can't imagine how the PMO would have done an end around on the sole source contract.

Possibly with the same long stick that he had Butts poke Jody Wilson-Raybould with. Remember how important it was to him but he he didn't bother to ask about it when in town?

Still, the Cons are doing a pretty weak job at being the opposition and really not terribly impressed at how ineffective they are generally.

That could be because the minority government practically shut down the parliament.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Suspect there were a few public servants, with no real knowledge of the volunteer landscape that looked at it and recommended WE get the sole source contract.........

Pretty sure that is how it went. 

I am not a Trudeau fan, but for all the haters out there, you can't have it both ways.  He can't be "not ready" and "too stupid to rule" and "just a drama teacher" and still be a criminal mastermind who is trying to ruin the country while feathering his nest....and if the usual suspects now trot our Gerald Butts and Katie Telford, I will ask them about Flanagan and Beardsley, just to start.

Still, the Cons are doing a pretty weak job at being the opposition and really not terribly impressed at how ineffective they are generally.

This is the real scandal.  Where oh where are people of substance?

 

[stellarpanther]

And you don't think that was a big deal either?

I was a Private at the time so who I'm sure there was a lot of stuff I didn't hear about.  All I know is that a lot of people much higher than me were saying his career was going to be over and he'd be lucky if he wasn't charged and instead, he got promoted a year later.

As far as this latest investigation regarding WE, let's see what happens.  The optics don't look good but I'm sure there is more to it.  I will say this though.  When Scheer comes out running his mouth all I can focus on is how he comes across as someone who personally hates Trudeau and I can't process anything else that he says.  I'm not an NDP supporter either but when Singh speaks, I don't usually agree with most things he says but I can still listen to what he says and give it some thought.  With Scheer, I need to fight the urge not to change the channel and I usually lose the fight.

 

[Haggis]

Still, the Cons are doing a pretty weak job at being the opposition and really not terribly impressed at how ineffective they are generally.

That's because they are mired in internal strife and chest deep in a stupefyingly boring leadership campaign featuring four lackluster candidates, none of whom can defeat the Trudeau personality cult.

He can't be "not ready" and "too stupid to rule" and "just a drama teacher" and still be a criminal mastermind who is trying to ruin the country while feathering his nest.

Trudeau survived SNC Lavalin, JWR, Norman, Blackface (x2), the India and Aga Khan trips and alleged groping.  He may not be a criminal mastermind or "not ready" and "too stupid to rule" and "just a drama teacher" but he is a powerful personality and is well advised (handled) by an experienced inner circle who understand what his political support base want to see and hear coming out of Parliament.  As long as he stays on script he appears to be prime ministerial.  He and his cabinet also have some trump cards yet to play in the coming months (no pun intended).  WE, like his vacation with the Aga Khan, is a speed-bump on the way to a majority win if an election is called in the next 6 to 12 months.

 

[Good2Golf]

No PSPC involvement.  It was not structured as a contract, rather, as a contribution agreement.  Different authorities for contribution agreements.

It was ESDC that recommended the structure, not PSPC.

Was it Vote 10 funds?  Was it within Supp A or extraordinary?

 

[dapaterson]

Was it Vote 10 funds?  Was it within Supp A or extraordinary?

I don't know - and remember that the vote structures are not identical across departments.  While DND/CAF has G&C under vote 10, it is not necessarily the same for others.

And given the lack of a federal budget this year, I have no idea how (from the perspective of the institution of government) the money is intended to flow.

 

[ModlrMike]

It doesn't matter if the bureaucrats recommended WE, both Trudeau and Morneau (and I suspect others like O'Regan) should have recused themselves from the decision by Cabinet.

You want to sit at the head of the table, you get to take ownership of decisions you have authority over. Both the good and the bad. Regardless of one's political leaning, or opinion of the incumbent, he needs to take a lesson from Truman - "The buck stops here."

 

[Kirkhill]

Pretty sure that is how it went. 

I am not a Trudeau fan, but for all the haters out there, you can't have it both ways.  He can't be "not ready" and "too stupid to rule" and "just a drama teacher" and still be a criminal mastermind who is trying to ruin the country while feathering his nest....and if the usual suspects now trot our Gerald Butts and Katie Telford, I will ask them about Flanagan and Beardsley, just to start.


This is the real scandal.  Where oh where are people of substance?

In business I have noticed a pattern.  The people that succeed don't know enough to know how little they know.  Consequently they are confident and that confidence wins them followers and success.  Conversely people that know what they don't know are unable to give the confident guarantees that people who want to be followers need. 

Consequently people schooled in the scientific method, which is based on doubt, need not apply. Actors, on the other hand, are great at selling confidence and emoting.  They have that whole faking sincerity thing down to a science.

 

[PuckChaser]

Pretty sure that is how it went. 

They legislated an ability to give a major donor (SNC Lavalin) a legal out of corruption and bribery charges, tried to pressure the AG to use that legal out and were only caught when the AG had the smallest amount of ethics training and realized what was being doing was wrong and put the rule of law over party partisanship. Doing an end-run around a sole-source contract (if it even is that as noted above) seems like small potatoes compared to SNC Lavalin. Do you also not think its a little odd so many people in the Trudeau cabinet have either personal or immediate family connections to this charity, which needed cabinet approval of a release of a billion dollars?

I am not a Trudeau fan, but for all the haters out there, you can't have it both ways.  He can't be "not ready" and "too stupid to rule" and "just a drama teacher" and still be a criminal mastermind who is trying to ruin the country while feathering his nest

You don't need a PHD in political science to be/act corrupt. Your argument is that this isn't a big deal because you can cite a bunch of lowest common denominator slogans? The counter to your point is that Trudeau is willfully circumventing and thumbing his nose at Parliament and the Conflict of Interest Act to pull all sorts of political cronyism acts on multiple occasions, and is smart enough to know its wrong but has so little opinion of the Canadian voter that he knows he can get away with it.

if the usual suspects now trot our Gerald Butts and Katie Telford, I will ask them about Flanagan and Beardsley, just to start.

Did you have a point or are you just trying to troll "the usual suspects" into a personal attack? I thought whataboutism was something we were trying to avoid in intelligent debate...

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Here is a passage that is found in every ministers in the Trudeau cabinet's mandate letters:

We have committed to an open, honest government that is accountable to Canadians, lives up to the highest ethical standards and applies the utmost care and prudence in the handling of public funds. I expect you to embody these values in your work and observe the highest ethical standards in everything you do. I want Canadians to look on their own government with pride and trust.

As Minister, you must ensure that you are aware of and fully compliant with the Conflict of Interest Act and Treasury Board policies and guidelines. You will be provided with a copy of Open and Accountable Government to assist you as you undertake your responsibilities. I ask that you carefully read it, including elements that have been added to strengthen it, and ensure that your staff does so as well. I expect that in staffing your offices you will hire people who reflect the diversity of Canada, and that you will uphold principles of gender equality, disability equality, pay equity and inclusion.

Give particular attention to the Ethical Guidelines set out in Annex A of that document, which apply to you and your staff. As noted in the Guidelines, you must uphold the highest standards of honesty and impartiality, and both the performance of your official duties and the arrangement of your private affairs should bear the closest public scrutiny. This is an obligation that is not fully discharged by simply acting within the law.

I have underlined some portion.

All Trudeau and Morneau had to do is say: "Sorry, potentially conflicted on that one, We'll go out . Let us know when we can come back in for the next point."

You tell me how the way they chose to act instead meets the underlined parts of the mandate letter (I am working on the assumption that Trudeau, in drafting those mandate letters expected the same standard would apply to him. I may be mistaken in that assumption).

 

[Eaglelord17]

That's because they are mired in internal strife and chest deep in a stupefyingly boring leadership campaign featuring four lackluster candidates, none of whom can defeat the Trudeau personality cult.

Trudeau survived SNC Lavalin, JWR, Norman, Blackface (x2), the India and Aga Khan trips and alleged groping.  He may not be a criminal mastermind or "not ready" and "too stupid to rule" and "just a drama teacher" but he is a powerful personality and is well advised (handled) by an experienced inner circle who understand what his political support base want to see and hear coming out of Parliament.  As long as he stays on script he appears to be prime ministerial.  He and his cabinet also have some trump cards yet to play in the coming months (no pun intended).  WE, like his vacation with the Aga Khan, is a speed-bump on the way to a majority win if an election is called in the next 6 to 12 months.

I don't know about that, he barely won the last election (20k votes being the deciding factor between the Conservatives and the Liberals). If the Conservatives put someone like Mackay in who would get them some Eastern seats, coupled with the Western seats they are basically guaranteed, I could see them easily making up the next government.

 

[brihard]

I don't know about that, he barely won the last election (20k votes being the deciding factor between the Conservatives and the Liberals). If the Conservatives put someone like Mackay in who would get them some Eastern seats, coupled with the Western seats they are basically guaranteed, I could see them easily making up the next government.

The CPC actually won the popular vote by 220k, but that's not particularly relevant. The LPC crushed them in seats, at 157 to 121 (point to note- the PPC made the difference in 'costing' a CPC win in only 6 seats, assuming every PPC voter would have voted CPC). The CPC put so much into catering to the prairies that they alienated too many voters elsewhere. Each vote in AB, SK, MB came at the cost of several others elsewhere. They already have tee prairies pretty locked down; they failed to properly allocate their efforts to where they could potentially make gains. Of course, picking Scheer was an uninspired choice and didn't help them.

CPC need to pull a bit back towards the centre to capture swing votes, not reinforce areas they've already won and gain precisely nothing from. That said, the election is probably a lock for LPC for the next year or so with the way things look now. CPC might be wiser to accept that this minority may go a full term, let the shine of the handling of COVID wear off, build a solid team and a solid slate of potential cabinet ministers, and they go into the next election unified and properly prepared.

 

[dapaterson]

Really, there's only one logical choice.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-tFDcyNMc

https://genius.com/Arrogant-worms-if-i-were-prime-minister-lyrics

 

[Haggis]

I could see them easily making up the next government.

The recent black gun ban and promised handgun ban (which I'm still convinced will be national in scope) has solidified his base in the major urban areas of Québec, BC and all of south central Ontario, which is pretty much a majority right there.  The ongoing COVID giveaways, which aren't going to end anytime soon, will get him a few more presently blue and orange seats.

CPC might be wiser to accept that this minority may go a full term, let the shine of the handling of COVID wear off, build a solid team and a solid slate of potential cabinet ministers, and they go into the next election unified and properly prepared.

The LPC are already governing like a majority anyways.  The next chance for a vote of non-confidence will come when/if they table a budget which may be at least 6 months to a year out thanks to COVID.