Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

[Booter]

If rents were below market value, the CRA would considered them to be subsidized by the employer and the difference would show up as a taxable benefit on your paystub.

The whole machinery of these things makes them require large changes by multiple levels and orgs to have changes to these treasury board tied things- I don’t think there is a will to do those things.

I chimed in on the rent/pld treasury board thing because it was something the RCMPs association had tried to start to deal with,

 

[btrudy]

If rents were below market value, the CRA would considered them to be subsidized by the employer and the difference would show up as a taxable benefit on your paystub.

That is of course still better than actually charging market rates, because then the member only ends up paying the taxes on that amount, rather than the full amount. So about 40% of the difference (depending upon your income bracket).

 

[Quirky]

Those ideas are all great but would require the TB to actually give a f*ck.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Is the Great Lakes Deployment not a thing anymore?

I'm thinking a GLD with multiple ships... Like a Toronto fleet week. Maybe invite some allied nations.

 

[Ostrozac]

If rents were below market value, the CRA would considered them to be subsidized by the employer and the difference would show up as a taxable benefit on your paystub.

For whatever reason, we are allowed to have national rates for single quarters. So one possible solution is vast numbers of brand new single quarters, built to the new accommodation standard, and a CAF workforce that is almost entirely either single or on IR. This allows families to buy houses, seek spousal employment, and put down roots anywhere they want, and children can go to the same school without having to move every few years. And cuts down on the expense of cost moves. Basically, the model used by mines and the oil patch. This model is also used widely by the British Army, the UK having the advantage of England being the exact same size as the Maritimes and weekend commuting being very easy.

It has the disadvantage that service members will almost never see their families. It does have the advantage of being within Treasury Board policy.

 

[MilEME09]

From what I understand PSP has little control over the rent. It is due to Treasury Board rules.

In keeping with Treasury Board policies, the Agency must set rents for PMQs that are comparable to those in the housing market around the base, as determined by Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CHMC). CMHC appraises the rental value of PMQs as if they were houses outside the base leased by private landlords, but since they are in such poor condition, their assessed value and thus the rents charged can be slightly less than for similar homes in better condition on the private market. Committee Report No. 3 - NDVA (36-1) - House of Commons of Canada

This makes no sense to me, it's not like base housing and PMQs are being rented to anyone so why should it be tied to the local economy? They should be a flat rate for the department, that's it. Point is to house our troops, not make money off them. We should build more condo/ apartment style buildings on bases as single/couples quarters, and row style Town houses as PMQs. Most bases have tons of space to do it, and easily house an entire bases population, and nor have to charge an arm and a leg.

 

[Blackadder1916]

This makes no sense to me, it's not like base housing and PMQs are being rented to anyone so why should it be tied to the local economy? They should be a flat rate for the department, that's it. Point is to house our troops, not make money off them. We should build more condo/ apartment style buildings on bases as single/couples quarters, and row style Town houses as PMQs. Most bases have tons of space to do it, and easily house an entire bases population, and nor have to charge an arm and a leg.

The simple explanation is "because the rules say so".

Part VI - Government Housing

www.njc-cnm.gc.ca

6.1.3 It is the policy of the government that occupants of government housing be accorded treatment equivalent to that accorded to persons renting similar accommodation from private or commercial sources. Rents for government housing must be fair and equitable and be based on the following principles:

1. they should not form part of an employee's compensation; and
2. they should reflect any factors which affect the quiet enjoyment or the privacy of the occupant and thus the value of the accommodation.

That "not form part of an employee's compensation" follows on from the Income Tax Act which says;

Employer-provided housing subsidies

(23) For greater certainty, an amount paid or the value of assistance provided by any person in respect of, in the course of or because of, an individual’s office or employment in respect of the cost of, the financing of, the use of or the right to use, a residence is, for the purposes of this section, a benefit received by the individual because of the office or employment.

There are costs to providing housing (whether family housing or single quarters) and I doubt that the department "makes money" from it. Granted, a lot of the housing stock is still likely crap and while the consolidation of all PMQs under a single agency probably contributes to a sense of profiteering, the expense of providing that service was mostly hidden (masked?) when PMQ operations were decentralized to the base level.

 

[dapaterson]

The only CAF group immediately eligible for housing relief under current federal income tax rules would be padres.

Clergy residence - Canada.ca

Taxable Benefits; Board and Lodging; Housing; Clergy residence deduction;

www.canada.ca

 

[kev994]

For whatever reason, we are allowed to have national rates for single quarters. So one possible solution is vast numbers of brand new single quarters, built to the new accommodation standard, and a CAF workforce that is almost entirely either single or on IR. This allows families to buy houses, seek spousal employment, and put down roots anywhere they want, and children can go to the same school without having to move every few years. And cuts down on the expense of cost moves. Basically, the model used by mines and the oil patch. This model is also used widely by the British Army, the UK having the advantage of England being the exact same size as the Maritimes and weekend commuting being very easy.

It has the disadvantage that service members will almost never see their families. It does have the advantage of being within Treasury Board policy.

I don’t think the ‘abandon your family’ COA is going to be very good for morale.

 

[MilEME09]

I don’t think the ‘abandon your family’ COA is going to be very good for morale.

It's a case of policy not matching reality

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I don’t think the ‘abandon your family’ COA is going to be very good for morale.

Or recruitment, retention, job satisfaction, marriages, or PR

 

[Ostrozac]

It's a case of policy not matching reality

As an organization we’ve been unsuccessfully lobbying Treasury Board about PLD for well over ten years, under both Conservative and Liberal governments. With nothing to show for the effort. At some point we have to stop tilting at windmills and design something that works within policy.

 

[btrudy]

As an organization we’ve been unsuccessfully lobbying Treasury Board about PLD for well over ten years, under both Conservative and Liberal governments. With nothing to show for the effort. At some point we have to stop tilting at windmills and design something that works within policy.

This is the crux of the issue.

The government is unwilling to do things to fix retention that will actually cost money.

The military is largely unwilling to do things to fix retention that actually change the way we go about doing our business.

Between those two restrictions, we're largely left with anemic half-measures that don't really do much.

 

[FJAG]

...That "not form part of an employee's compensation" follows on from the Income Tax Act which says;

Employer-provided housing subsidies

(23) For greater certainty, an amount paid or the value of assistance provided by any person in respect of, in the course of or because of, an individual’s office or employment in respect of the cost of, the financing of, the use of or the right to use, a residence is, for the purposes of this section, a benefit received by the individual because of the office or employment.

All of which can be taken care of with one sentence being added.

This section does not apply residences being provided by the Government of Canada to members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Where there is a will ...

 

[dapaterson]

Why? Should a Maj paid in excess of $100K get subsidized housing?

Means testing might be unpopular, but there's no valid reason to treat a Pte 3 the same as a senior officer, or the same as a SOF Op or SAR tech.

 

[Booter]

Why? Should a Maj paid in excess of $100K get subsidized housing?

Means testing might be unpopular, but there's no valid reason to treat a Pte 3 the same as a senior officer, or the same as a SOF Op or SAR tech.

Doesn’t that create the issue where no one will take the posting again since they can be a major somewhere and have more money in their pocket, it reduces the incentive to serve across Canada.

No one thing is going to fix the forces. I feel like we always search for a magic bullet. Some easy out. “Money” “missions!” “Material” but it’s more a mix of small things.

I would suggest two scotch’s in that the issue is that no one in government cares because to Canadians it’s good enough to have the fiction of function.

And because no one cares- all the other issues facing the CF exists. Actually being symptoms of “meh”

 

[daftandbarmy]

This is the crux of the issue.

The government is unwilling to do things to fix retention that will actually cost money.

The military is largely unwilling to do things to fix retention that actually change the way we go about doing our business.

Between those two restrictions, we're largely left with anemic half-measures that don't really do much.

I'm sorry, did you say TDBGs?

600 reservists of the Montreal Territorial Battalion Group to train in Laval from January 22 to 24, 2016 - Canada.ca

Exercise QUORUM NORDIQUE 2016 (Ex QN 16) is urban winter warfare training involving 600 reservists of the Montreal Territorial Battalion Group from January 22 to 24, 2016. The exercise will take place in an urban setting, in Laval, Quebec.

www.canada.ca

 

[dapaterson]

Explain to Canadian taxpayers why a CAF member earning in the top 10% of incomes (before accounting for spousal income) needs subsidized housing.

Any CAF measures to address housing costs must be means tested. And since the central gatekeepers for the CAF are those who'd not benefit from such restrictions, the circle will never be squared.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Why? Should a Maj paid in excess of $100K get subsidized housing?

Means testing might be unpopular, but there's no valid reason to treat a Pte 3 the same as a senior officer, or the same as a SOF Op or SAR tech.

One difference between a military family (with a civilian spouse) and a civilian family is that our spouses are forced to leave their jobs as we are posted, significantly reducing a family’s income. With the daycare crisis in the country, some spouse aren’t able to work for sometimes a fairly long time. Yes, a Major making 120K a year is doing well. But when their spouse, who made often more than 50-60K a year, stops working to care for kids because they are posted, the family suddenly makes less than a service couple of two corporals. With that in mind, subsidized housing should be available to all CAF members, NCMs and Officers.

 

[dapaterson]

And that is why nothing will change. Senior officers feeling that they are entitled to their entitlements.

After getting a paid university degree (all pensionable time). After getting paid career training. After getting automatic promotion to a rank that starts at $84K and goes to $110K in their mid 20s (GSO). Yet somehow, they feel they are owed subsidized housing.