Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

[Fabius]

The housing issue isn’t about entitlements of one rank over another. Nor is it a desire for housing to be subsidized because CAF personnel are special.
It’s about ensuring CAF personnel are able to move around the country and not experience large swings in their financial situations due to the vagaries of regional, provincial or municipal economics. That helps retention and recruitment.

CAF personnel can’t and don’t have the ability to move of their own will to an area that is cheaper to live or has more amenities etc. Nor do salaries differ depending on if you work in Toronto, Vancouver or Dundurn or Yellow Knife.

Whether it’s PLD or something akin to the US services where their are large stores CONUS and across the globe with harmonized prices and a plethora of on base housing at a harmonized rate that may or may not have any relevance to the local market, they are all aimed at the same thing.
Ensuring the quality of life across the country is as similar as possible so as to permit and promote ease of mobility.
Right now the CAF is failing, and I agree the government isn’t willing to spend money to fix it and the military isn’t willing to imagine HR changes to mitigate it so here we are.

 

[btrudy]

Looking at it from the perspective of whether or not members at certain rank (read: income) levels deserve subsidization to offset housing costs is IMHO a bit backwards.

The government's imperative here is to stem the flood of personnel leaving the CAF. If we're still losing too many majors due to excessive housing costs when they're posted to places they wouldn't otherwise choose to live, then we're going to keep losing too many of them if the proposed solution to high housing costs doesn't include majors.

If they're not leaving because of high housing costs, if retention at that rank level isn't an issue, then sure, exclude them from it.

I rather suspect that retention at that level is absolutely an issue that needs to be fixed (along with basically all ranks below them).

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not sure they could craft public policy that is somehow drills down to rank or even trade levels. Those parameters seem to be too fluid or dynamic to wrap national policy around. As well, I'm not sure that the issue of housing costs and places people would otherwise want to live are necessarily connected.

*****

I don't hope to understand CAF promotion and transfer policy, and this example likely has nothing to do with housing costs, but I was chatting with a member at a bike shop on the weekend. CWO, 30 years in, and they wanted to transfer him halfway across the country. He respectfully declined and retired; but, because of staffing shortages, he flipped over to the reserves, doing the same thing for it sounds like damned near full time hours. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[MilEME09]

The CAF needs to pay well because the conditions certain members are sometimes subjected to, are pretty bad.

Generally, crappy conditions = more pay.

I made a 140k last year, but that was including FSP, Danger Pay, Hazard Pay, etc. Given what I was subjected to at times, pretty cheap all things considered in comparison to other lines of work.

My future employer also offers a nice compensation package but the compensation is also to make up for crappy conditions that also exist in that particular industry.

Canadians aren't going to do difficult and dangerous work if they aren't compensated appropriately, that's the reality.

Inflation has to be factored into this situation as well, housing costs alone are up an average of 30% nation wide. In just one year, your 140k isn't going as far as it did last year I imagine.


Especially in Urban centers like Vancouver or Toronto, PLD from my understanding, barely scratches the surface for members. When was the last time any one this was reviewed?


While the liberal government is patting it self on the back for its national housing strategy, the strategy forgets about the housing of its own employees

 

[OldSolduer]

While the liberal government is patting it self on the back for its national housing strategy, the strategy forgets about the housing of its own employees

It’s no different provincially as well. Governments here of both parties love to tell private industry how to treat employees but continually roadblock their own.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Forest industry in BC is suffering from similar issues, resulting in recruiting problems.

Some government staff lived in subsidized housing in townsites with their families, like PMQs, based in remote locations. When people started quitting, or not joining in the first place, because of this type of internal exile government sold off the properties and serviced the areas remotely.

Industry has always run camps, where workers rotate in and out every couple of weeks. This is proving less appealing too, as is living and working in mills based in remote parts of the Province. The town of Mackenzie, for example, is dying because people don't want to live there even though there are alot of high paying jobs available. This all adds to costs as turn over is high, and servicing remote areas is far more expensive.

From a conference in Vancouver last week:

B.C. forest sector grapples with attracting workers amid regulatory overhaul, image problem: industry panel​

Bromley spoke as part of a panel on Friday at the annual convention of B.C. Council of Forest Industries (COFI), which discussed how to attract a new generation of workers to the sector, which directly employs 50,000 workers but is facing uncertainty as the province overhauls regulatory policies and civil unrest continues over logging old-growth trees.

"We have an image problem," said Bromely. "And that's something we have to deal with."

The panel, which included the heads of post-secondary institutions and a recent forestry graduate, said working against the sector were not just negative headlines in the media, but a lack of understanding over how the industry is moving toward modernity by incorporating new technologies and Indigenous land stewardship, as well as simpler things such as how workers can get to job sites due to the price of fuel, and work-life balance for new hires.

"From a young person's standpoint, how do we bridge that gap?" asked Bromley, who has two sons, one of whom is working in the film industry, while the other is considering working at a mill this summer.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/forestry-workers-british-columbia-new-generation-1.6437379

 

[btrudy]

I'm not sure they could craft public policy that is somehow drills down to rank or even trade levels. Those parameters seem to be too fluid or dynamic to wrap national policy around. As well, I'm not sure that the issue of housing costs and places people would otherwise want to live are necessarily connected.

*****

I don't hope to understand CAF promotion and transfer policy, and this example likely has nothing to do with housing costs, but I was chatting with a member at a bike shop on the weekend. CWO, 30 years in, and they wanted to transfer him halfway across the country. He respectfully declined and retired; but, because of staffing shortages, he flipped over to the reserves, doing the same thing for it sounds like damned near full time hours. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I definitely agree that managing such a policy to such a granular level would be troublesome at best.

The simplest solution would be to ensure that the benefits of the policy are available to all.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I definitely agree that managing such a policy to such a granular level would be troublesome at best.

The simplest solution would be to ensure that the benefits of the policy are available to all.

It could be pro-rated by pay level. Perhaps set to a certain fixed percentage of income?

 

[Booter]

There are already parts of compensation and benefits that change at the “EX” level with federal government and not always towards their best interest, If a person wanted to draw a Line you could.

 

[lenaitch]

It’s no different provincially as well. Governments here of both parties love to tell private industry how to treat employees but continually roadblock their own.

Yup. Ontario moved the cost of employer-provided housing to local market value in the mid-1980s. Things like meal costs when you're travelling have always lagged the market, especially in urban remote areas which are more expensive for different reasons. I believe you folks can claim 'per diem' whether or not the money is spent, so at least you can baloney sandwich your way around.

In terms of resource harvesting, historically a townsite would emerge near a mine, but the government hasn't allowed a new one in at least 50 years, because they know they are stuck servicing or supporting it once the mine shuts down. Better transportation options and changing lifestyle expectations allow crews to cycle in and out of temporary bunk camps on extended cycles.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Malaysia offers housing to all it's Public Service and military. Quality of said housing is dependent on rank. Problem has been that government sees Federal land as a piggy bank and why to balance the present budget with no thought to the future and the Canadian government will always take the cheapest way forward, regardless of how much it costs.

 

[dimsum]

Especially in Urban centers like Vancouver or Toronto, PLD from my understanding, barely scratches the surface for members. When was the last time any one this was reviewed?

2009 or earlier.

 

[RangerRay]

The Forest industry in BC is suffering from similar issues, resulting in recruiting problems.

Some government staff lived in subsidized housing in townsites with their families, like PMQs, based in remote locations. When people started quitting, or not joining in the first place, because of this type of internal exile government sold off the properties and serviced the areas remotely.

Industry has always run camps, where workers rotate in and out every couple of weeks. This is proving less appealing too, as is living and working in mills based in remote parts of the Province. The town of Mackenzie, for example, is dying because people don't want to live there even though there are alot of high paying jobs available. This all adds to costs as turn over is high, and servicing remote areas is far more expensive.

From a conference in Vancouver last week:

B.C. forest sector grapples with attracting workers amid regulatory overhaul, image problem: industry panel​

Bromley spoke as part of a panel on Friday at the annual convention of B.C. Council of Forest Industries (COFI), which discussed how to attract a new generation of workers to the sector, which directly employs 50,000 workers but is facing uncertainty as the province overhauls regulatory policies and civil unrest continues over logging old-growth trees.

"We have an image problem," said Bromely. "And that's something we have to deal with."

The panel, which included the heads of post-secondary institutions and a recent forestry graduate, said working against the sector were not just negative headlines in the media, but a lack of understanding over how the industry is moving toward modernity by incorporating new technologies and Indigenous land stewardship, as well as simpler things such as how workers can get to job sites due to the price of fuel, and work-life balance for new hires.

"From a young person's standpoint, how do we bridge that gap?" asked Bromley, who has two sons, one of whom is working in the film industry, while the other is considering working at a mill this summer.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/forestry-workers-british-columbia-new-generation-1.6437379

A lot of forestry students want to work in the bush but not move to a mill town to do it.

To be honest, not all mill towns are created equally…

 

[Booter]

A lot of forestry students want to work in the bush but not move to a mill town to do it.

To be honest, not all mill towns are created equally…

Plus the uncertainty of what you’ll be trying to move from. Enough collapsed mill towns that a person would appropriately be concerned about starting any roots- especially financially.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Plus the uncertainty of what you’ll be trying to move from. Enough collapsed mill towns that a person would appropriately be concerned about starting any roots- especially financially.

The traditional career pathing for the sector - in BC anyways - was that the 'new people' would earn their spurs in the Boonies, then migrate through various other positions around the sector and finally end up in either the Okanagan, Kootenays or Vancouver Island for retirement.

Spiking house prices in those 'retirement' communities have pretty much canned that idea, I would think.

 

[Booter]

The traditional career pathing for the sector - in BC anyways - was that the 'new people' would earn their spurs in the Boonies, then migrate through various other positions around the sector and finally end up in either the Okanagan, Kootenays or Vancouver Island for retirement.

Spiking house prices in those 'retirement' communities have pretty much canned that idea, I would think.

That’s similar to a few industries- even with EMS. Cut your teeth in the boonies- but reality has changed that like you’re saying

 

[mariomike]

That’s similar to a few industries- even with EMS. Cut your teeth in the boonies- but reality has changed that like you’re saying

Where was that?

 

[Booter]

Bc. Breaking into the industry you went into the woods and worked on call for a pittance to build the hours to get a job in the southern half of the province.

 

[mariomike]

Bc. Breaking into the industry you went into the woods and worked on call for a pittance to build the hours to get a job in the southern half of the province.

Their brochure sounds nice,

Choose an urban, small-town, or remote lifestyle in beautiful British Columbia.
Fraser, Interior, Northern, Vancouver Coastal and Vancouver Island; there is a lifestyle to suit you! The mountains and ocean provide an amazing backdrop for outdoor sports and recreation, and each region has its own perks such as downtown shopping and entertainment, wineries, and family-friendly communities.
Flexibility in taking your career anywhere in BC

 

[Booter]

My knowledge is pretty dated. Really a guy had to have a couple jobs and be on call to really get ahead.

They’ve been trying to change it for a while. But yeah- it’s beautiful country…when I was a young firefighter/EMR decades ago they almost got me…