Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

[SupersonicMax]

And that is why nothing will change. Senior officers feeling that they are entitled to their entitlements.

After getting a paid university degree (all pensionable time). After getting paid career training. After getting automatic promotion to a rank that starts at $84K and goes to $110K in their mid 20s (GSO). Yet somehow, they feel they are owed subsidized housing.

Perhaps not but at least make it based on family income.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One difference between a military family (with a civilian spouse) and a civilian family is that our spouses are forced to leave their jobs as we are posted, significantly reducing a family’s income. With the daycare crisis in the country, some spouse aren’t able to work for sometimes a fairly long time. Yes, a Major making 120K a year is doing well. But when their spouse, who made often more than 50-60K a year, stops working to care for kids because they are posted, the family suddenly makes less than a service couple of two corporals. With that in mind, subsidized housing should be available to all CAF members, NCMs and Officers.

Most of my management level clients move several times during their careers, sometimes from one side of Canada to another.

Their companies, and shareholders, don't compensate them with subsidized housing. Their spouses, as many male as female, have to figure out their careers ... and childcare (without family nearby) as well.

Also, they aren't in government jobs that are pretty much guaranteed for life with excellent pay, a juicy family healthcare/ benefits package and a gold plated pension at the end.

Just sayin'...

 

[SupersonicMax]

Most of my management level clients move several times during their careers, sometimes from one side of Canada to another.

Their companies, and shareholders, don't compensate them with subsidized housing. Their spouses, as many male as female, have to figure out their careers ... and childcare (without family nearby) as well.

Also, they aren't in government jobs that are pretty much guaranteed for life with excellent pay, a juicy family healthcare/ benefits package and a gold plated pension at the end.

Just sayin'...

They are not forced to move. They refuse to move and they’ll probably stall their career but they’ll keep their job. And they can talk to their employer and have a conversation about the move and other potential positions. We are obligated to move. The other options are being charged or release. For most, there isn’t even a discussion possible.

 

[dapaterson]

They are not forced to move. We are.

"Move or you don't have a job" is a pretty compelling reason to move.

And CAF leadership embraces moves for less than valid reasons.

 

[daftandbarmy]

They are not forced to move. We are.

If they want to get promoted and/or keep their jobs, most of them have to move. That's how the private sector works.

 

[dapaterson]

Perhaps not but at least make it based on family income.

So, 100K in income = Capt 6 GSO and above / MWO Spec 2 IPC 4 and above. Start adding in environmental allowances and those drop rapidly.

 

[SupersonicMax]

So, 100K in income = Capt 6 GSO and above / MWO Spec 2 IPC 4 and above. Start adding in environmental allowances and those drop rapidly.

Or two Cpls…. There are many scenarios possible.

 

[SupersonicMax]

If they want to get promoted and/or keep their jobs, most of them have to move. That's how the private sector works.

Lose a promotion, yes. Lose your job? That would be illegal in many/most cases.

 

[GR66]

Unit prices could be set at a rate that is the average of prices across the range of CF bases. That way there would be some certainty in knowing what your housing costs will be when you move. When posted to a base where the CF housing cost is less than the local average cost then the difference could be treated as a taxable benefit. If the CF cost is higher than the local average then the difference could be made up as PLD.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Promoted, yes. Lose your job? That would be illegal.

Not at all.

If part of the requirement for the job is for you to run the branch office in Winnipeg, you'd better move to Winnipeg or they'll wave you goodbye while they fill that spot with someone else.

Welcome to the world of big business (that generates the revenue, through taxes etc, that pays for things like the CAF)

 

[Booter]

Most of my management level clients move several times during their careers, sometimes from one side of Canada to another.

Their companies, and shareholders, don't compensate them with subsidized housing. Their spouses, as many male as female, have to figure out their careers ... and childcare (without family nearby) as well.

Also, they aren't in government jobs that are pretty much guaranteed for life with excellent pay, a juicy family healthcare/ benefits package and a gold plated pension at the end.

Just sayin'...

those sound like terrible companies.

A very quick google search has all types of Canadian hits discussing how relocation in the private sector has to address cost of
Living and address spousal employment in some way.

I’m sure you can’t mention the specifics of these companies. I’m quite certain what you’re saying IS true however.

Just when this was being examined through the lens of benefits for other federal agencies there were lots of private sector examples that had quite generous assistance to their people to put the right person in the right job.

Perhaps the issue is- some people believe that if you serve in the CF and there is a benefit that’s okay, others believe that we should try and make everything as even with the private sector as possible.

I guess the proof of just how crazy this benefit is will the incredible number of people in the recruiting centre

 

[Booter]

i was involved in some work that put me in touch with some mid and higher managers of a large tech/everything company- I was quite shocked at the expectation of their work and their compensation. Well paid- but their work schedule and benefits were quite surprising- in the way you describe DB.

So I suppose it’s not universal. Thinking on my own post.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This is the crux of the issue.

The government is unwilling to do things to fix retention that will actually cost money.

The military is largely unwilling to do things to fix retention that actually change the way we go about doing our business.

Between those two restrictions, we're largely left with anemic half-measures that don't really do much.

Haven't always agreed with all your points but I think you've pointed your guns at the correct targets here.

Retention has multiple components to it and neither the Govt nor the CAF can fix it individually.

 

[daftandbarmy]

those sound like terrible companies.

A very quick google search has all types of Canadian hits discussing how relocation in the private sector has to address cost of
Living and address spousal employment in some way.

I’m sure you can’t mention the specifics of these companies. I’m quite certain what you’re saying IS true however.

Just when this was being examined through the lens of benefits for other federal agencies there were lots of private sector examples that had quite generous assistance to their people to put the right person in the right job.

Perhaps the issue is- some people believe that if you serve in the CF and there is a benefit that’s okay, others believe that we should try and make everything as even with the private sector as possible.

This is not 'terrible', it's the way that highly successful organizations survive in a tremendously competitive global environment.

This article gives some insight into what it can be like for someone on an upwards career path, including regular moves internationally, with no 'career manager' apart from yourself - and no guarantee that they'll 'make it' either:

The CEO Succession Difference​

How is top-level succession unique? To answer that question, take the case of Dennis (names in examples throughout this article have been changed). Dennis was on the fast track from the start. An Ivy League graduate, he spent three years in an industry leader’s sales-training program, got his MBA at a top school, and completed a finance-training program in another industry-leading company. After 18 months, he moved to the marketing department there, then to a branch manager job for a few years. Next, he jumped to a competitor to become a country manager (“I had to get my international ticket punched”); sales records were set in his market. Five years later, he was named senior vice president for emerging markets.

Not long after that, Dennis left to become the designated CEO successor at a company in a different industry, where he was unfamiliar with the products and technology. “I wasn’t looking,” he said, “but I knew I could run something bigger. I was ready. I was 44 years old, and [the COO and CEO of the company I had left] were in their mid fifties…and there were some talented people between me and them. Leaving there was the way to be a CEO faster.” In business school, he had set a goal to become a CEO by age 50. “As I got closer to the top, I became more confident that I’d reach that goal. I had been in four successful companies where I’d seen CEOs up close. I’m not saying that I’m better than they were, but I knew I could do their job.”

The succession plan approved by the board was for Dennis to enter as COO, with marketing, sales, manufacturing, engineering, and service reporting to him while the senior staff people (the head of HR, the CFO, and the general counsel) plus R&D stayed under Harvey, the chairman and CEO. The role of president remained unfilled. If things went well over the first 18 months, Dennis would take on that title. In another year, he would become CEO, and six months after that, Harvey would retire.

Almost Ready: How Leaders Move Up

Reprint: R0501D Most designated CEO successors are talented, hardworking, and smart enough to go all the way—yet fail to land the top job. What they don’t realize is, the qualities that helped them in their climb to the number two position aren’t enough to boost them to number one. In addition...

hbr.org

 

[SupersonicMax]

This is not 'terrible', it's the way that highly successful organizations survive in a tremendously competitive global environment.

This article gives some insight into what it can be like for someone on an upwards career path, including regular moves internationally, with no 'career manager' apart from yourself and no guarantee that they'll 'make it' either:

The CEO Succession Difference​

How is top-level succession unique? To answer that question, take the case of Dennis (names in examples throughout this article have been changed). Dennis was on the fast track from the start. An Ivy League graduate, he spent three years in an industry leader’s sales-training program, got his MBA at a top school, and completed a finance-training program in another industry-leading company. After 18 months, he moved to the marketing department there, then to a branch manager job for a few years. Next, he jumped to a competitor to become a country manager (“I had to get my international ticket punched”); sales records were set in his market. Five years later, he was named senior vice president for emerging markets.

Not long after that, Dennis left to become the designated CEO successor at a company in a different industry, where he was unfamiliar with the products and technology. “I wasn’t looking,” he said, “but I knew I could run something bigger. I was ready. I was 44 years old, and [the COO and CEO of the company I had left] were in their mid fifties…and there were some talented people between me and them. Leaving there was the way to be a CEO faster.” In business school, he had set a goal to become a CEO by age 50. “As I got closer to the top, I became more confident that I’d reach that goal. I had been in four successful companies where I’d seen CEOs up close. I’m not saying that I’m better than they were, but I knew I could do their job.”

The succession plan approved by the board was for Dennis to enter as COO, with marketing, sales, manufacturing, engineering, and service reporting to him while the senior staff people (the head of HR, the CFO, and the general counsel) plus R&D stayed under Harvey, the chairman and CEO. The role of president remained unfilled. If things went well over the first 18 months, Dennis would take on that title. In another year, he would become CEO, and six months after that, Harvey would retire.

Almost Ready: How Leaders Move Up

Reprint: R0501D Most designated CEO successors are talented, hardworking, and smart enough to go all the way—yet fail to land the top job. What they don’t realize is, the qualities that helped them in their climb to the number two position aren’t enough to boost them to number one. In addition...

hbr.org

Got it, so basically a minority of worker.

 

[dapaterson]

Got it, so basically a minority of worker.

Like senior officers - a minority of the CAF.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Like senior officers - a minority of the CAF.

Senior officers part of succession planning. Many don’t want to progress.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Got it, so basically a minority of worker.

This Darwinian experience probably applies to most senior managers in big corporations who operate at a level equivalent to the rank of Maj/LCol in the CAF so yes, that would be a minority of those in a corporation of several thousand people.

It's even tougher for those in big consulting firms, or professional services organizations that track their time by the hour - like law firms.

 

[lenaitch]

Lose a promotion, yes. Lose your job? That would be illegal in many/most cases.

I'm not so sure that can be a blanket statement, but I'm not an employment lawyer. It seems there are numerous factors that have to be considered, such as the existence of a bargaining unit, existence/terms of employment contract, position within the company, so-called 'legitimate business needs, etc.

The employer could also simply offer a severance package. Depending on your age, length of service, etc. it could be a legal and relatively inexpensive way to rid themselves of a recalcitrant employee.

A friend was middle management at IBM and the inside joke used to be IBM stood for 'I've Been Moved'. Banks used to be notorious for moving their management-track people but I don't know if they still are.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

And that is why nothing will change. Senior officers feeling that they are entitled to their entitlements.

After getting a paid university degree (all pensionable time). After getting paid career training. After getting automatic promotion to a rank that starts at $84K and goes to $110K in their mid 20s (GSO). Yet somehow, they feel they are owed subsidized housing.

The CAF needs to pay well because the conditions certain members are sometimes subjected to, are pretty bad.

Generally, crappy conditions = more pay.

I made a 140k last year, but that was including FSP, Danger Pay, Hazard Pay, etc. Given what I was subjected to at times, pretty cheap all things considered in comparison to other lines of work.

My future employer also offers a nice compensation package but the compensation is also to make up for crappy conditions that also exist in that particular industry.

Canadians aren't going to do difficult and dangerous work if they aren't compensated appropriately, that's the reality.