"Men's"/whatever "Christmas"/whatever Dinner (merged)

[brihard]

Courses such as BMQ are not paid for by the brigade - unless LFDTS has canned the course, it should still operate, even in the CBG main body is stood down.

Not recruit courses. The example I've got in mind is a Basic Mountain Ops that was going to be run within Brigade, and which has, from what we were told,  been canned. These days it's already obscenely rare (at least within 33CBG) to see a course run that isn't explicitly a career course, with the odd spot on a driver wheel thrown out to us just to keep the RQMS viable. Essentially, anything that in times past would have been called a QL4 just doesn't happen anymore.

I don't understand how the budgeting and fin codes for such courses work, but the Class A stand down was cited as the reason for this getting shut down. I acknowledge that ancillary skillsets are pretty much a luxury these days, but the reality remains that we have a core of senior MCpls and Cpls who have nothing but career courses under their belt- and good luck getting course loaded on anything once you've got a leaf.

It's difficult to explain the financial necessity of these cuts to my troops when there are so many readily apparent instances of excesses in spending across the board. I know Class Bs have already taken a big hit, but how far do they think the PRes can stretch? How are we supposed to force generate for OP Cadence without the cash to train?  How are we supposed to retain troops and expect maximum attendance when we can't hold up our end of the bargain and provide a reasonable amount of work and training in line with what they were told they could expect when they recruited? How are basic skillsets to be maintained and expanded without class A days in which to train?

 

[tango22a]

Simian Turner:

Keeping in mind that I have been retired for over twenty years, you're OUT TO LUNCH! If the party degenerates into a food fight....SO WHAT!! Does it offend your sensibilities to see some people that have busted their a$$es on a knotted together shoe string for years and years have a good time?

All I can say is that you sure have a very, very narrow outlook on life.


tango22a

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

The financial restraint is not just an LFCA problem.  Its an Army problem.  The Army just cancelled the next AOC Residency scheduled for January due to monetary shortages.  All those Army Capts who just completed the DL are now waiting to see if they are loaded on the next serial. 

 

[Haggis]

Do parades raise morale more than getting boots dirty in the field?  If the Men's Christmas Dinner is a parade like every other parade night in a Reserve Unit - what is attendance like?

If parades don't have an effect on morale, then why, in my Regiment, did troops find their ways back to their hometown from all over the country to participate in a Freedom of the City last May?

Not recruit courses. The example I've got in mind is a Basic Mountain Ops that was going to be run within Brigade, and which has, from what we were told,  been canned.

The Basic Mountain Ops course was cancelled due to lack of instructors.  Your RSM has the details.

It's difficult to explain the financial necessity of these cuts to my troops when there are so many readily apparent instances of excesses in spending across the board. I know Class Bs have already taken a big hit, but how far do they think the PRes can stretch?

CLS has already stated that he will accept that "some things will not get done" as a result of the Class B cuts. However, I don't think he  has a true sense of what those "things" may be and the second and third order effects of their "not getting done".

How are we supposed to force generate for OP Cadence without the cash to train?  How are we supposed to retain troops and expect maximum attendance when we can't hold up our end of the bargain and provide a reasonable amount of work and training in line with what they were told they could expect when they recruited? How are basic skillsets to be maintained and expanded without class A days in which to train?

it's a well known belief that Op CADENCE is the Army Reserve's chance to demonstrate the viability of the TBGs and it's ability to mount and execute domestic ops on a large scale.  The cynic in me could see this as an institutional attempt to undermine the viability and relevance of the Army Reserve. ("See?  We gave them ONE task, and they couldn't deliver!")

 

[George Wallace]

Please enlighten me gents, on these assumptions and profile biases.  I thought we were sharing opinions not using veiled speech.  Because I do not share your opinion there must be something wrong with my assumptions or my profile contents.  Let's stick to facts and opinions. I have attended hundreds of unit functions (Regular and Reserve, Combat Arms and HS) including mess dinners and Christmas dinners which have provided many great memories but they have resulted in more unit discipline issues than they have ever increased morale.  IMHO sports days, inter-rank competitions, adventure training, properly conducted professional development and courses are more likely to raise unit morale ........

Just to enlighten you, it is these Sports Days, Inter-rank Competitions, Adventure Training, Professional Development and Professional Courses outside of Career Courses that are taking the cuts.  In fact in some Trades, it is Trades Courses and Development/Continuation Trg that is being cut to fulfill IBTS Trg (which we all know is a waste of time, as everyone who has deployed in the past has had to redo it all with their respective BGs, sometimes several times).  So, what is one moral building event in a year to show appreciation to the troops?

.....than a booze-fueled party where an individual's personal morale is exaggeratedly heightened.

This is what I find to be your most "out to lunch" opinion expressed throughout this thread.  I don't know where you have been, but only a "Reformed Alcoholic" who thinks his problem is held by all, would assume that all Christmas Dinners, held by all Units, Reg or Reserve, devolve into this type of activities.  As a Matter of fact, in the last ten to fifteen years I would say that trend has become rather rare.

 

[Haggis]

I have attended hundreds of unit functions (Regular and Reserve, Combat Arms and HS) including mess dinners and Christmas dinners which have provided many great memories but they have resulted in more unit discipline issues than they have ever increased morale.  IMHO sports days, inter-rank competitions, adventure training, properly conducted professional development and courses are more likely to raise unit morale than a booze-fueled party where an individual's personal morale is exaggeratedly heightened.

I, like George, will take issue with this assertion of yours.  I have attended well over thirty Reg and Res F "Mens'" Christmas dinners.  I have also served or assisted with a good number of officer's functions as well.  In my opinion, the NCMs are generally far better behaved than their "leaders".  However, to that I will add, as George stated above,  that this type of Neanderthal conduct is no longer the the norm.  It's the exception and is dealt with as such.  Yes, there is booze.  Yes, there is frivolity.  But that combination will exist at ANY mess dinner, in ANY Mess.  If that's a lynchpin in your rationale to cancel the Men's Christmas dinner then I submit to you that the same approach shall and must be taken for all Mess functions in all Messes. 

 

[tango22a]

Gentlemen:

I can assure you that if I should be able to attend the WOs' and Sergeants' Mess Dinner my costs are NOT subsidized in any way. Add up 600km of travel, accommodations, and Dinner tariff, it adds up to a good chunk of change. I don't begrudge the time spent or money. It brings me back to my roots!

If able, I would be more than honoured to attend the Men's Christmas Dinner, doing set up, serving, and clean up as required. It's sort of a payback for all the years spent with my Regiment. Don't find any problems with that at all.


tango22a

 

[the 48th regulator]

Pay them, and serve 'em a good dinner.

We have 8 years of war, that have chewed up all people in the Military, Mentally and Physically.

Can we not use Fiscal Spending to aid the morale of soldiers, at least once a year?

Phuck me, are people that miserable?

dileas

tess

 

[vonGarvin]

Pay them, and serve 'em a good dinner.

We have 8 years of war, that have chewed up all people in the Military, Mentally and Physically.

Can we not use Fiscal Spending to aid the morale of soldiers, at least once a year?

Phuck me, are people that miserable?

dileas

tess

Amen! 

 

[Gunner98]

Just to enlighten you, it is these Sports Days, Inter-rank Competitions, Adventure Training, Professional Development and Professional Courses outside of Career Courses that are taking the cuts.  In fact in some Trades, it is Trades Courses and Development/Continuation Trg that is being cut to fulfill IBTS Trg (which we all know is a waste of time, as everyone who has deployed in the past has had to redo it all with their respective BGs, sometimes several times).  So, what is one moral building event in a year to show appreciation to the troops?


This is what I find to be your most "out to lunch" opinion expressed throughout this thread.  I don't know where you have been, but only a "Reformed Alcoholic" who thinks his problem is held by all, would assume that all Christmas Dinners, held by all Units, Reg or Reserve, devolve into this type of activities.  As a Matter of fact, in the last ten to fifteen years I would say that trend has become rather rare.

So now I am a "reformed alcoholic" who needs "enlightenment", do you folks read the posts in this thread or just dream up new ways to embarass yourselves.  If everything else has been cut except the Men's Dinner and it is the last vestige to say "we appreciate you troops", then go ahead and have your dinner this year.  I guess I did not make this clear enough for you, if I was a Reserve Unit CO and I had my choice between funding field training and a Men's Dinner, I would choose to have my troops get their boots dirty.

I guess what you are telling me that this is "the babbling of a biassed, assumption-filled, unenlightened, reformed alcoholic with his head up his a$$. "  Forgive me for expressing an opinion in this thread.  Happy a fine holiday season gents, I will go back to my 12-step program study notes, I must have missed something.

To enlighten you I have been told that LFCA HQ has canceled their Men's Dinner and are having a pot-luck lunch, is this leading by example?  What is "rather rare" is that like "kind of unique".  Finally it is "morale" not "moral" we are discussing, a little 'e' makes a big difference.

 

[tango22a]

Tess:

Double Dip: AMEN!!  AMEN!!


tango22a

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So now I am a "reformed alcoholic" who needs "enlightenment", do you folks read the posts in this thread or just dream up new ways to embarass yourselves.  If everything else has been cut except the Men's Dinner and it is the last vestige to say "we appreciate you troops", then go ahead and have your dinner this year.  I guess I did not make this clear enough for you, if I was a Reserve Unit CO and I had my choice between funding field training and a Men's Dinner, I would choose to have my troops get their boots dirty.

I guess what you are telling me that this is "the babbling of a biassed, assumption-filled, unenlightened, reformed alcoholic with his head up his a$$. "  Forgive me for expressing an opinion in this thread.  Happy a fine holiday season gents, I will go back to my 12-step program study notes, I must have missed something.

To enlighten you I have been told that LFCA HQ has canceled their Men's Dinner and are having a pot-luck lunch, is this leading by example?  What is "rather rare" is that like "kind of unique".  Finally it is "morale" not "moral" we are discussing, a little 'e' makes a big difference.

As I belive it was my little story of the good ol days while I was in The PEIR that led to your (inflated, IMO) statements that these dinners are alcohol fueled disciplinary incidents, I will chime in again:

- yes, lots of us drank more than allowable to legally drive a car.  So what?  I would like you to clearly state how this is BAD.

- some people got in trouble...again, so what?  I don't think the army wants a bunch of scared robots now, does it?  The guys I remember getting the eye of the RSM at functions like these were characters that had some balls and color to them.  They were also pretty damn good Jnr NCOs, crew commanders, leaders, and I'd of gone into the crap with any of them. 

- I believe Haggis made a comment of how the "senior in ranks" behaved at their Mess Dinners.  I, too, have witnessed the conduct that is normal at an Officers Mess Dinner and will state that, simply put, it was easily 400% worse than any Men's Dinner I ever attended.

- Having spent a few years as a Jnr NCO that sat at the dinner, I myself considered it an honour when I was promoted to Snr NCO and did my first Men's Dinner as part of the group serving our soldiers.  It was a chance to see them all, look them in the eye and shake their hands with a Merry Christmas or whatever as they came thru the receiving line on the way to the seating area.  I also remember cleaning up later, with the RSM standing there, and hearing the cheers from the Jnr Ranks mess as someone else who had been promoted bought a round, hearing the bell, then the loud cheer from all in the mess.  The RSM looked at me and the other 2 Sgts standing there and said "fuck its good some things haven't changed isn't it boys?".

This thread just reinforces what I think about how this PC stuff has gone WAY to far.  Soldiers aren't choir boys and girls; part of what I used to love was the play hard/work hard stuff. 

Lets leave our people to play hard at THEIR Christmas Dinner if they want to.  And look after them if they get alittle gooned, make sure they are safe, make sure their backs are covered, make sure they get home.  You know, that "looking after the welfare of your men" thing.

:2c:

 

[Remius]

Regardless, with all the cuts being made, I'm sure the fact that the ARMY Ball is not getting cancelled will be justified with "morale reasons".

The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think.

 

[Journeyman]

The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think.

Could you explain?

 

[OldSolduer]

"The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think."

Yes, please explain.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think.

I too am interested in your statement. Please explain......

op:

 

[aesop081]

As much as i have enjoyed the dinner myself over the years, and that traditions are important, some of you guys make it sound like the dinner is all thats keeping the army from collapsing.

If the moral of the army depnds on one dinner late during the year, theres much bigger problems.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Regardless, with all the cuts being made, I'm sure the fact that the ARMY Ball is not getting cancelled will be justified with "morale reasons".

The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think.

The DND has decided to start an initiative, in conjunction with global warming, to cut back funding for regimental wear;

dileas

tess

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My eyes!  My eyes!!! 

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[dapaterson]

Up the Guards!