"Men's"/whatever "Christmas"/whatever Dinner (merged)

[a_majoor]

I thought I'd go to the women's Christmas dinner instead...

 

[vonGarvin]

I thought I'd go to the women's Christmas dinner instead...

TECHNOVIKING is very pleased with your suggestion, Thucydides!


:nod:

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

I think the army  in general refers to all enlisted persons as MEN because of the Geneva Conventiions does not list rights for women, everything is listed as Men. That  was explained to me by  a Jag  Officer back in the 90s at LFCA HQ when i worked there. has it changed offically?

 

[Neill McKay]

I think it probably pre-dates the Geneva Conventions.  Before there were women in the Forces the military population consisted of "officers and men", and you'll still hear that term in some historical contexts.  I would suggest that the "men's Christmas dinner" comes from that era.

 

[medicineman]

I recall in the not so distant past when, in the name of keeping CFB Kingston alive, the Base Commander for 2 years running cancelled the Non-Commissioned Members Winter Festive Food Fight, oops, Dinner.  I also recall the Officers' Mess there had a huge at home and Christmas party not long after.  What he put on instead was a little tea and sandwich get together that few attended.  When he left, we got an RCR Col in as B Comd and he immediately reinstated the Chrsitmas Dinner - though as a cost cutting measure, he made it for living in pers only, but at least he brought back a modicum of tradition that was really important for morale.  Especially when there wasn't alot to go around at that time.

MM

 

[Gunner98]

Pardon my ignorance, so you are saying that Reservists are paid to come to the unit for the Christmas Dinner and some would vote to sacrifice training days to continue this tradition.  Why not suggest that soldiers with good morale might come to the unit for dinner and few free beers without being paid to do so.  Do officers get paid to attend Mess Dinners?  Do entire Reserve units get paid for Remembrance Day, when/wherever they might parade or attend a ceremony?

 

[dapaterson]

Pardon my ignorance, so you are saying that Reservists are paid to come to the unit for the Christmas Dinner and some would vote to sacrifice training days to continue this tradition.  Why not suggest that soldiers with good morale might come to the unit for dinner and few free beers without being paid to do so.  Do officers get paid to attend Mess Dinners?  Do entire Reserve units get paid for Remembrance Day, when/wherever they might parade or attend a ceremony?

Why pay the Reg Force for the same things?  Why not cut off Reg F pay for the weekends when they aren't on duty - significant savings there?

Or, perhaps, if we are asking people to serve, to give their time and efforts, we should compensate them for it?

 

[George Wallace]

Pardon my ignorance, so you are saying that Reservists are paid to come to the unit for the Christmas Dinner and some would vote to sacrifice training days to continue this tradition.  Why not suggest that soldiers with good morale might come to the unit for dinner and few free beers without being paid to do so.  Do officers get paid to attend Mess Dinners?  Do entire Reserve units get paid for Remembrance Day, when/wherever they might parade or attend a ceremony?

Just like in the Reg Force, these events are "Parades".  Why wouldn't they be paid?  And just like the Reg Force, they often have to dig into their pockets to pay for these Dinners. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Back when I was alittle younger, my old Reserve unit, The PEI Regiment used to always have the Mens Dinner as the last "parade night" of the year and always on a Friday.  It was the big event for The Regiment each year usually.  I was part of B Sqn in Summerside PEI, with CFB Summerside still being open (to some extent) at the time.  The dinner itself was at the Queen Charlotte Armouries in Charlottetown, about a 60 minute bus drive in the early winter.  We'd (B Sqn) show up at The Mess in Summerside for a few starters, and alot of us had a pint of *something* to continue the festivities on the drive to the QCA.  The receiving line would set up shortly after we arrived in Charlottetown and had time to go to our respective messes to meet up with those A Sqn fags from the city  , at which time the party just got bigger.  The dinner's were always the best;  lots of laughs, stories of things that had happened over the past year, all that stuff.  And of course, the always anticapted promotions within the Regiment, usually exluding those of Officers, which seemed to be done more at the Officers Mess dinners.  After a great meal and usually LOTS of free brews downrange (the extras lined up under your chair, of course), the CO would give his speech to The Regiment...the dinner would be dismissed.  The Guidon would be marched off, the Jnr Ranks would head to the Mess to get it started up, Snr NCOs and above would clean up and then it was "open Mess's" for the remainder of the night, although that usually meant the WOs and Sgt's and younger Officers would end up in the Jnr Ranks mess where the party was.  After the Mess's closed down, us B Sqn troops would get back on the bus (loaded up with beers from all the promotions, etc), drive back to Summerside and open up the mess there to finish the night.  They were the best military parties I have every gone to, and I looked forward to them yearly after attending my first one.  I distinctly remember the moment I was on the first floor of the armouories and hearing a roar and commotion, saw several of the *usual characters* lofting the christmas tree from the Jr Ranks mess over the railing on the second floor to the parade floor below.  Always a sign of good times and a good party with the 17th!

Comparitively, the dinners I have gone to in the Reg Force are pure boring to date.  Usually at noon at Stadacona, lively as a bridge party at an old folks home.  I have no interest in them, but then again I am alittle older now too but...if I had the chance to go back to the one at The Regiment, I am sure it would be just as good time all over again...just alot of the faces from back in the day wouldn't be there anymore.

Being that some of my fondest memories of those Reserve days are things like the Men's Christmas Dinner of yester-year, I think they should cancel some of the PC demanded non-army trg first like all that SHARP and HARASSMENT shit you get a gazillion time over your career and keep the Men's Dinner.

 

[Gunner98]

I am not sure these arguments are strengthening the case.  If the Reg Force unit CO had full budget control and could manipulate his salary expenditures I could see your first point; however, this is not the case.  As for your second point, servers could be compensated but that would be relevant to the number of attendees.  My point was if we are riding on a declining budget trend, you have a decision to make between time/money to get boots dirty and napkins dirty, I think it should be an easy decision.  If it takes an Area Comd to make this decision for unit COs then that makes a statement.

Do parades raise morale more than getting boots dirty in the field?  If the Men's Christmas Dinner is a parade like every other parade night in a Reserve Unit - what is attendance like? 

The entire argument about what to call the dinner shows the diminishing sense of tradition, if it has become a victim of political correctness then how is it a tradition.  It is in the same manner as when I hear senior officers stumble to stress "soldiers, sailors, Air Force men and women".  Why is it important to stress that only the Air Force has not found an acceptable gender neutral name to give their "soldiers"; why don't they just cut to the chase and say, "all members of the CF".  Or do some folks in uniform take offense to being called a "member".

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Servers?  The "servers" at the Men's Christmas Dinners should be the Officer, WOs and Sgt's of the unit(s).  Again, that is part of the tradition...where did this servers shit come from?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My point was if we are riding on a declining budget trend, you have a decision to make between time/money to get boots dirty and napkins dirty, I think it should be an easy decision.  If it takes an Area Comd to make this decision for unit COs then that makes a statement.

I can tell you, in my old unit, cancelling the Men's Dinner would have had a BAD effect on Morale.  From the top down, maybe they think these dinners weren't big deals but...when I was around the PRes world, in my unit, it was a huge deal.  Smart Unit COs would realize this, IMO, and NOT cancel the dinner that is supposed to show appreciation to the SOLDIERS of the unit for all they did that year. 

Do parades raise morale more than getting boots dirty in the field?  If the Men's Christmas Dinner is a parade like every other parade night in a Reserve Unit - what is attendance like?

I don't know many people who choose NOT to go to biggest part in The Regiment each year...you'd have been missing out on something, no question.

As for the tradition of the Men's Christmas Dinner...taken from the link below:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/2PPCLI/RH-Honors_and_Traditions.asp

Traditions
The Military Christmas Dinner
Tis not the season to talk of Christmas as the snow has just departed and summer is at our door steps but then when a question arrises one must accept the challenge and find the answer.

Traditions come from somewhere and it takes a little reading and research to find out how one tradition started and where it came from. As for the tradition of the military Christmas dinner, its origins stem back to Roman times.

The custom of role reversal is a rather odd tradition for the military. The youngest member of the unit will switch tunics with the commanding officer for the day and in turn the officers and and senior NCOs will serve dinner to the enlisted members of the unit. The Roman customs of Saturnalia is where these activities originate. The festival of Saturnalia varied during the course of Roman times. It generally began as a feast for Saturn around December 17 and 18 and during the empire period it extended to a week.

The festival falls at the same time as other religions are celebrating Christmas, Hanukkah, Solstice and Kwanzaa. As with Christmas, garlands, wreaths and tree ornaments abound. The idea of the celebration was to promote merry making, rest and relaxation and to help the less fortunate. Food abounded and everyone shared.

During the celebrations of Saturnalia, children and slaves had the opportunity for a role reversal. They were entitled to be the parents/masters for a time. The parents and masters jokingly played the part of children and slaves. The biggest part of Saturnalia was the attitude and the children and slaves were allowed to make decisions and lead the rituals. It was all in fun and any decisions were reversed at the end of the day. Slaves weren't really free to make decisions and children weren't allowed to enter into contracts as the role reversal was only for minor privileges.

Before the introduction of mechanization of military units, enlisted personnel spent most of their time occupied by tedious tasks. In order to boost morale and overcome boredom, their officers took it upon themselves to arrange celebrations for the men. This included the organization and preparation of a Christmas dinner; the best Christmas dinner possible. Officers and senior NCOs not only prepared the meal but served it as well. Their task not complete until all was cleaned up.

As with Roman times, the Canadian Forces today practices a role reversal for minor privileges in a spirit of good cheer. During festive times, the Commanding officer will switch roles and tunic with the youngest member of the unit. The soldier becomes the honorary commander for the day.

The tradition of the Christmas dinner is a long standing one. It reinforces unit cohesion, fosters mutual respect and lets the troops know that their efforts throughout the year are appreciated. For these reasons, the tradition continues today.

 

[Gunner98]

So to sum up - it is a party at which soldiers are made to feel appreciated, you eat some food and drink lots and of course since it is a parade so you get paid to attend and therefore, why would you miss it.  Sounds like a new formula for a weekend field exercise too bad they are not as well attended.  The parties as so far described get out of hand, the food is thrown and not eaten, the alcohol is drunk beyond a reasonable level and this of course ultimately raises unit morale - really. 

The fact that Regular Force Men's Christmas Dinners have become boring is because the sense of appreciation that soldiers are shown today does not involve throwing food and consuming large quantities of alcohol shortly after noon.  In my units the highlight of the holiday season has become giving accelerated promotions to deserving soldiers, now that is a good sign of appreciation.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I just looked at your profile, now I know why you don't seem to get it.

Enjoy your tea and cucumbers or whatever you do, leave the morale of the Jnr Ranks with those who know about it...the Snr NCOs, WOs, Sgt-Majors and RSMs. 

:

 

[George Wallace]

So to sum up - it is a party at which soldiers are made to feel appreciated, you eat some food and drink lots and of course since it is a parade so you get paid to attend and therefore, why would you miss it.  Sounds like a new formula for a weekend field exercise too bad they are not as well attended.  The parties as so far described get out of hand, the food is thrown and not eaten, the alcohol is drunk beyond a reasonable level and this of course ultimately raises unit morale - really. 

The fact that Regular Force Men's Christmas Dinners have become boring is because the sense of appreciation that soldiers are shown today does not involve throwing food and consuming large quantities of alcohol shortly after noon.  In my units the highlight of the holiday season has become giving accelerated promotions to deserving soldiers, now that is a good sign of appreciation.

Some fairly out to lunch assumptions on your part. 

 

[Loachman]

What George said.

This is an important morale-building exercise. It is worth far more than the little that it costs. It will cost far more than any measly short-term savings should it be cancelled.

It is our traditions and heritage that sustain us in the present and future.

 

[dapaterson]

I am not sure these arguments are strengthening the case.  If the Reg Force unit CO had full budget control and could manipulate his salary expenditures I could see your first point; however, this is not the case.  As for your second point, servers could be compensated but that would be relevant to the number of attendees.  My point was if we are riding on a declining budget trend, you have a decision to make between time/money to get boots dirty and napkins dirty, I think it should be an easy decision.  If it takes an Area Comd to make this decision for unit COs then that makes a statement.

And it will indeed make a statement- as the Reg F XMas blowouts will continue.  "You are second class."

Just like the Army Commander makes a very clear statement when he says "I have no money for Reserve fitness.  But I do have money for the Army Run."  "You are not important."

Perhaps not the intended messages, but they come through loud and clear - "You are not a priority."


Are morale building functions important for the military?  Definitely.  Are there admin bumph items we can can before we can things like the Seasonal Dinner?  Most definitely.

Do parades raise morale more than getting boots dirty in the field?  If the Men's Christmas Dinner is a parade like every other parade night in a Reserve Unit - what is attendance like? 

It depends.  Here, we invite back all serving pers with a connection to the unit, to renew old friendships and make new ones.  The padre passes the hat for the local mission, and collects non-perishables for the local food bank.  Awards are given out to acknowledge the work, contribution and commitment that people have shown over the past year.


Despite the best efforts of some, the military is not a faceless connection of replaceable cogs.  It is all about the people - and recognizing, embracing and supporting that reality is an important part of what we do.

On the Reserve side, there are fiscal realities.  True.  But a single Capt working class B as a  bumboy to the Area Comd will be paid $60-80K per year.  That would pay for 800 soldiers (average pay) to have their dinner.  Which is better for morale?  And how many bumboys have we inserted into the system so our ever-growing collection of seniors can feel important?

At the end of the day there is a balancing act with the Reserves.  Frankly, I'm at a point in my life where the money, though a nice to have, is not a prime motivator.  But the time commitment is significant, and there are many other things I could do, and would like to do, that my military commitment precludes.  Start expecting more unpaid service "because you should do it out of duty/loyalty/take your pick of emotional appeals" and you'll get people walking.


More on topic:  I've seen no such directive from the LFCA Comd at this point.

 

[brihard]

I can shed some light on the original subject.

What we were told last Thursday is that LFCA is short about $7mil for the FY at this point. That shortfall has been distributed (I'mn not sure how) amongst all subordinate formations and units.

In my case, 33 Brigade has elected to make up the shortfall by ceasing all Class A reserve parading from 5 Dec until 21 Jan. Other people I've spoken to have said that 31 Brigade has ceased all parading for the remainder of the FY. I don't know if Class Bs are affected.

This is a real kick in the nuts for a lot of us coming into the Christmas season... Not a good time to be told we're for all intents and purposes laid off for six weeks. That said, we are a country coming out of a recession, and we are an army at war. Cuts have to be made. I just hope the army took a hard look at a lot of the superfluous, bullshit spending before they took a cut out of our budget. We now have courses and a lot of good scheduled training being cancelled because of this.

 

[Gunner98]

Please enlighten me gents, on these assumptions and profile biases.  I thought we were sharing opinions not using veiled speech.  Because I do not share your opinion there must be something wrong with my assumptions or my profile contents.  Let's stick to facts and opinions. I have attended hundreds of unit functions (Regular and Reserve, Combat Arms and HS) including mess dinners and Christmas dinners which have provided many great memories but they have resulted in more unit discipline issues than they have ever increased morale.  IMHO sports days, inter-rank competitions, adventure training, properly conducted professional development and courses are more likely to raise unit morale than a booze-fueled party where an individual's personal morale is exaggeratedly heightened.

We are not a country coming out of a recession our national debt sits at $.5 trillion and counting.  The markets and unemployment figures last week did not seem so bright.  Comd LFCA has not canceled Christmas, yet!

 

[dapaterson]

Courses such as BMQ are not paid for by the brigade - unless LFDTS has canned the course, it should still operate, even in the CBG main body is stood down.