• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Operational Usefullness of Reserve Forces

  • Thread starter Thread starter jmackenzie_15
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
recceguy:

You'll note in my initial post I did actually state that there are some exceptions.

Caesar said:
Secondly, there are exceptions for res not deploying with the initial force, one of those exceptions being specially trained individuals.

Perhaps you should research my posts before correcting me.

Cheers.
 
My last tour was as a DCO of a Battle Group, and yes in a perfect world all members of the BG do exactly the same amount of workup trg, with their applicable subunit and then final confirmation trg with the BG.  But this is not a perfect world...big surprise!  So could augmentees be selected, change position, do less trg, etc..unfortunately, of course.  Regardless, the final decision of who is deemed op ready rests with the BG Comd, based on recommendations from the chain of comd detailing who is fit to deploy and in what jobs.  Thus any member, reg or res, can for the most part fill any position.  As well any member of the BG, reg or res, can be found lacking in skills/ability, etc and be replaced.  I can't speak on the latest roto, pbi would be better to comment on this. I have been on tours where we had as many as 430 reserve members in our BG and as few as approx 20, the requirements don't change IMHO.

Caesar has nicely summed up the rest.
 
This disparity in training and skill proficiency is the cross that we reservists must bear.  I agree completely with ArmyRick 
that with the proper work up trg, most reservists can function side by side with their Reg Force counterparts.

The lack of physical fitness in some troops is particularly aggravating to me, as there seems to be no enforcement of the PT standards once a soldier has completed their trg - especially among the higher ranks. Thankfully, the infantry does eat it's own - even in the militia - so I do not have to see much of that in my regiment.  

Even so, seeing some fat sack of sh*t waddling around WATC, out of breath on a walk, is sickening to see; it makes the Reserves look bad, especially to some of the younger gung-ho reg force troops who haven't quite realized the benefits of having reserves yet, and therefore seem incubate the majority of this foolish anti-militia attitude.  Most reserve soldiers are competent for their jobs - and most Reg Force soldiers recognize this, but, as reservists we have to police ourselves when it comes to PT standards.
 
Caesar said:
recceguy:

You'll note in my initial post I did actually state that there are some exceptions.

Perhaps you should research my posts before correcting me.

Cheers.

Your right. Guess I quit reading when I read your initial statement:

Roto 0 is actually the second rotation in theatre

No biggy. Point taken ;)
 
Question:

If Roto 0 is the 2nd rotation, what designation would the first rotation be given?
 
Good points being made here. I've mentioned my past (ad nauseam) sufficiently that my perspective is probably understood here. My comments;

-The Army normally expects that 90 to a maximum of 120 days of training (DOT)will be given to bring average Res soldiers to DLOC="Deployment Level of Capability" which is required IOT achieve the OPRED that Sandbag referred to. Note that I said "normally". Unfortunately, it is becoming increasingly fuzzy (IMHO) just what "normally" means any more. The Army is still under manning pressures, there is a much greater desire and willingness to use Res soldiers, and indeed we now have a pretty respectable pool of Res soldiers with at least one if not multiple missions under their belts. In the case of our Bde, 38 CBG, we launched a D&S Pl out the door with about 30 DOT for the current Roto of ATHENA. The Pl was all Res, although a few of the NCOs incl the Pl WO were ex-Regular Army. There were problems during training, primarily to do with fitness and weapons skills, but overall the trg (we ran it ourselves in the Bde) went well. The Pl did a good job overall-it encountered some problems (partly as a result of a lack of time to build cohesion, partly from other issues that were beyond its control and I won't go into here...), but all things considered I do not think its performance was measurably worse than an equivalent RegF pl;

-I have been a Res soldier on ops with the RegF, and I have had Res soldiers under my command on ops in a Reg unit. Most of the comments made by folks here are pretty accurate. If the Res soldier is physically fit, keen, understands that like any "new guy" anywhere he may have to prove himself, and is ready to work the "long haul" as opposed to the 48hour weekend adrenalin burst, then IMHO they will do very well. I found that once my coy deployed into theatre, after a while I had to look closely to see if a soldier was Res or Reg-you just couldn't tell;

-here on ATHENA 02 there are Res in the D&S Pl, in CIMIC, and scattered around all over the contingent. For the most part, they seem to work out OK. To me the question is not "this job for Regs, that job for Res" but "right soldier to right job". By force of circumstances, Regs will take some jobs to a greater proportion: this is normally based on trg and experience rather than prejudice (although we would be foolish to think there is not some of that still...);

-formed Res subunits were deployed in Bosnia on the later Rotos, and performed at least acceptably up to well. Again, it depends on many factors. Our Bde fielded one CRIC and contributed to another, back to back, and found significant differences in the way the gaining RegF units received, treated and employed these Res elements;

-I can relate from a non-military experience that there is always tension in any organization composed of "full-timers" and "part timers". I served for a while as a volunteer firefighter in a department that was manned by paid crews during the daylight weekday hours, then by us VFFs at night and on weekends/hols. The stations, trucks and equipment belonged to the VFFs-the paid men were put in by the local municipal government to ensure timely response during working hours when most VFFs had commuted to work. If a call came in during the "volunteer hours" then the VFFs fought the same fires, did the same auto extrications and medic assists as the paid men did during the day, but for no pay. The relationship was, to put it mildly, poisonous. It resembled the worst RSS/Class A relationship you could possibly imagine. So, I think that to a certain extent we may not ever be able to extinguish mutual suspicion and dislike that may be endemic to "mixed" organizations, although in my experience we have come a very long way; and

-in my experience Res soldiers are not, as a rule, given "back seat" jobs. However, as a commander I could see a particular ethical or perhaps moral issue that might appear to work against the op employment of Res in some situations. That is, IMHO, that no commander should willingly employ soldiers when he knows that their lack of skills or experience unduly endangers them or the mission. In some circumstances this might prevent some Res from being employed. But, if you apply that criterion honestly, you must then examine each soldier's true abilities, both Reg and Res. I daresay that I have seen a few people in the RegF who should not be sent on certain missions either. "Waddling sacks of sh*t" are not confined to the Res, believe me......

Cheers.

 
One thing that I think would greatly improve the reserve value added to operations would be to establish (and clearly comunicate to members of the CF) a dual-component force generation & augmentation plan that is supported by a workable managed readiness system.

Say what?

Basicly, I think we need to clearly identify what contributions we (the army) expect the reserve component to make to forcasted deployments and unforcasted deployments during times of stratigic1 peace, conflict, and war.   Expected contrubutions of the PRes could be expressed something like this:

Forcasted RotationUnforcasted Deployment/High Readiness Capability
Stratigic Peacehigh threat enviroment = X        
low threat enviroment = Y
high threat enviroment = A
low threat enviroment = B
Stratigic Conflict        high threat enviroment =   :bullet::bullet::bullet:
low threat enviroment =   :rage:  
high threat enviroment =   :cdn:
low threat enviroment =   :bullet::bullet:
Warhigh threat enviroment =     :threat:
low threat enviroment
high threat enviroment = 0
low threat enviroment

This would then be tied to a functioning dual-component managed readiness system, and required reserve capabilities would be stood up and trained for high readiness tasks along side the regular force elements schedualed to go high readiness with them.

1.   I use the term "stratigic peace" and "stratigic conflict" not to reflect conditions on the ground in a theater of operations but more of an indication of the political urgency and precived international threat (and the Per/Op Tempo that would be politicaly acceptable in each circumstance)

"stratigic peace" could be compared to our "post-Cold War" days in the FRY.
"stratigic conflict" would reflect the Op Tempo & political urgency that the we have given the war on terror
"war" would reflect the Op Tempo & political urgency that the US has given the war on terror
 
Forcasted Rotation Unforcasted Deployment/High Readiness Capability
Stratigic Peace high threat enviroment = X     
low threat enviroment = Y high threat enviroment = A
low threat enviroment = B
Stratigic Conflict        high threat enviroment = 
low threat enviroment =  ¼/td> high threat enviroment = 
low threat enviroment = 
War high threat enviroment = 
low threat enviroment high threat enviroment = 0
low threat enviroment 

OK-I must be dumb but I can't decipher from your table what the Res committment is supposed to be. What am I missing here?
Cheers.
 
That is because I don't know what the commitments should be.
However, someone who can look at reserve capabilities & regular force needs/shortfalls across the board should sit down and figure out what X, Y, and   :bullet: :bullet: :bullet: should be.
 
The current plan being worked on by the Land Staff right now (IIRC) projects that one Res Cbt Tm will be ready per year (or maybe one per Roto although that sounds very ambitious...). I have a document here (somewhere) with me on that-I will try to dig it out and perhaps share some of the wisdom it contains. Cheers.
 
Two big problems the reserves face when forming their own company are;

1. constantly changing time table.
I remember once or twice being told, on thrusday, that timings have changed and if i want to keep my spot on tour i need to attend pre-work up training that friday to sunday.  For me it wasn;t so bad (being an unemployed bum)  For guys with families and full time jobs it was pretty bad.  (We started our pre-pre work up training about a year before our tour)
The week-ends were constantly changing. Trying to keep a company of soldiers spread across ontario updated on those kinda chances seemed to have been a nightmare.

2. Interchanging people
One week-end a unit would send 7 guys and the next week-end 4 of those guys were different.  Guys would do some of the training, decide a tour wasn't for them and quit. Their unit would then fire in a new guy who was missing all the previous training and would have to use training time to play catch up. Keeping track of peoples courses must have been insane as well.

I think if (when) the reserves suppliment the regular force (as their own element or as an agumentee) they should;

a. Do away with all the pre-work up training and show up ready for the 1 or 3 or 6 months of work up, well trained.
b. Troops be able to commit theirselves fully to the training and not have other commitments that they need to miss training for. (within reason)
c. Attention be paid to a characters previous conduct, charge reports and PDRs. (Getting kicked off a previous tour for stupidity would be a big red flag in my books)
d. Aim for 125% to 150% of the number of troops asked for. This way theres room for people to drop out, fail, red flagged. Also fill the positions that pop up right before leaving.
e. Once positions are filled don't let parent units play mix match with troops.

 
If reservists can so easily be "brought up to speed" with reg force troops, why are so many of them drastically reduced in rank upon entry into the reg force (MWO to Cpl in one case) and when deploying on tours (Op Palladium)?  Furthermore, the ability of reservists to actually do their jobs is sorely tested when living conditions do not meet their expectations and they maintain the "show up if you feel like it" attitude, and pull pole on leave or r and r. Anyone who has been around can provide examples of this. Also, on Op Apollo, reservists were specifically precluded from the sharp end, and we were better off as a result. The reserves should be employed domestically as aid to civil power troops, and in rear ech jobs. Very few of them are cut out for the demands of a "real" operational environment. This is through no fault of their own, incidentally, as it is the Reserve structure that created them.
 
If reservists can so easily be "brought up to speed" with reg force troops, why are so many of them drastically reduced in rank upon entry into the reg force (MWO to Cpl in one case) and when deploying on tours (Op Palladium)?  Furthermore, the ability of reservists to actually do their jobs is sorely tested when living conditions do not meet their expectations and they maintain the "show up if you feel like it" attitude, and pull pole on leave or r and r. Anyone who has been around can provide examples of this. Also, on Op Apollo, reservists were specifically precluded from the sharp end, and we were better off as a result. The reserves should be employed domestically as aid to civil power troops, and in rear ech jobs. Very few of them are cut out for the demands of a "real" operational environment. This is through no fault of their own, incidentally, as it is the Reserve structure that created them.

Correcty for the most part that it's not thier fault, they only do it (train) about 1/5th the time Reg force people do. It is known that during WW1+2, militia regiments/units and soldiers lasted longer in combat on average than reg force soldiers. Why? Maybe they hid in the trenches abit longer when the order to "CHARGE!!!" was given? :P I do not proclaim to know how or why... It's just known they lasted longer, not by much, but they did!

Maybe Infanteer can shed some light on us here, he's got quite the brain for historical information it seems!  ;)
 
Pte (R) Joe said:
It is known that during WW1+2, militia regiments/units and soldiers lasted longer in combat on average than reg force soldiers. Why? Maybe they hid in the trenches abit longer when the order to "CHARGE!!!" was given? :P I do not proclaim to know how or why... It's just known they lasted longer, not by much, but they did!

Please qualify this statement with some sort of reference.  Firstly, I've never heard of it.  As well, the Reg/Reserve divide you seem to be playing on is completely different today then it was in the mobilization effort for both World Wars.
 
Pte (R) Joe said:
It is known that during WW1+2, militia regiments/units and soldiers lasted longer in combat on average than reg force soldiers. Why?
Well, it is known that in World War I, the standing armies of the west deployed to fight in the fields of France and Belgium.  They were unprepared for the new type of warfare (MG, barbed wire, etc) though they probably should have learned watching the Russians battle the Japanese.  The standing armies took high casualties as they learned trench warfare the hard way.  However, you assertion that the reservists statistically lived longer is 100% BS.  Reserve units & reinforcements would have had the benefit of lessons learned by the standing armies that fought in the opening stages of the war, but once in the line they would have been no different.

As far as the Canadian perspective on the war goes, the reserves did not deploy.  Sam Hughes did employ reserve colonels to raise battalions to form the CEF, but these were formed separate from the existing reserve structure.  .  Boer War vets often filled leadership positions and by the time these units went into the line, they had spent months in Canada and the UK being trained.  They had more in common with a standing army in its infancy than with reserves.

The Second World War also drew on leadership of a previous war, and this time there were years to train in the UK.  By the time our soldiers went into battle during that war, they were a standing army.  The one exception would be the troops deployed to Hong Kong, who were quickly defeated along side the British garrison.
 
GO!!! said:
If reservists can so easily be "brought up to speed" with reg force troops, why are so many of them drastically reduced in rank upon entry into the reg force (MWO to Cpl in one case) and when deploying on tours (Op Palladium)? Furthermore, the ability of reservists to actually do their jobs is sorely tested when living conditions do not meet their expectations and they maintain the "show up if you feel like it" attitude, and pull pole on leave or r and r. Anyone who has been around can provide examples of this. Also, on Op Apollo, reservists were specifically precluded from the sharp end, and we were better off as a result. The reserves should be employed domestically as aid to civil power troops, and in rear ech jobs. Very few of them are cut out for the demands of a "real" operational environment. This is through no fault of their own, incidentally, as it is the Reserve structure that created them.

Yep and many can give examples of reg force guys being left behind on rear party because they could not handle it either. 

Please do provide an example of someone pulling pole on leave or RnR, I am dieing to hear it.

tess



 
GO!!!, guess what? Just like 48th regulator has stated, you guys in the REG F have your own "Less than stellar" individuals ! So please do qualify your statement?
All you have done is bashed reservist in general.
Why do they get demoted upon entry into REG F? It depends on qualification and also availibility of the rank position. I know of one guy while I was in 2VP who direct entried into the REG F as a sergeant (he was a SGT in the reserves) and he went on to serve in 2 CDO. He is an excellent soldier and a great leader. I don't know if he is still serving or not.
Just because a few people have are below standard when they come on work up training, it doesn't mean every revervist is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top