Operational Usefullness of Reserve Forces

[pbi]

If reservists can so easily be "brought up to speed" with reg force troops, why are so many of them drastically reduced in rank upon entry into the reg force (MWO to Cpl in one case) and when deploying on tours (Op Palladium)?   Furthermore, the ability of reservists to actually do their jobs is sorely tested when living conditions do not meet their expectations and they maintain the "show up if you feel like it" attitude, and pull pole on leave or r and r. Anyone who has been around can provide examples of this. Also, on Op Apollo, reservists were specifically precluded from the sharp end, and we were better off as a result. The reserves should be employed domestically as aid to civil power troops, and in rear ech jobs. Very few of them are cut out for the demands of a "real" operational environment. This is through no fault of their own, incidentally, as it is the Reserve structure that created them.

Disagree on almost all counts.

First, I'd like to see some proof or even good anecdotal stuff supporting your contention that "so many" Res soldiers are "drastically" reduced in rank upon transferring to the RegF. I will offer instead that the great majority of Res who transfer to the RegF do so quite early in their Res service and thus have very little rank to reduce, and very little experience to substantiate a higher rank. As for the MWO-what MOC did he transfer into? His own? Another? What drove the decision to reduce him?

Second, your comment on the reduction of Res in rank when going on tours is inaccurate: that is no longer the policy and has not been for years. Some Res may be offered a position on a tour at a lower rank, but that is not a policy and not a mandatory reduction. The policy is to employ them at their rank.

Third, before commenting on about Res in combat, check out the number of Reservists who were in 2PP at Medak and in combat, and are wearing the commendation for it. Remember that 2PPCLI at Medak is believed to have killed somewhere from 10-30 Croat soldiers in action: a respectable total when compared to Op Apollo, wouldn't you say?

Your suggestions for employing the Res are defeatist and in any case would not produce the capabilities we need. They are already doing dom ops, alomg with their other duties. And, by the way, in today's operational environment, where is the "rear area"?. Res soldiers, given the preparation time that the Army sets for them (then often fails to give) can perform well on operations. The human qualities that make a good soldier are not confined to the RegF. Do Res soldiers have weaknesses? Yes! But your post IMHO is a broadside condemnation.

Cheers.

 

[pbi]

It is known that during WW1+2, militia regiments/units and soldiers lasted longer in combat on average than reg force soldiers.

While GO  may be too much on the negative side of things, Pte (R) Joe has crashed off the road and into the ditch on the positive side. As some of our well-informed posters have already pointed out, this statement is ridiculous on a several levels, and doesn't help Res one bit.
Cheers.

 

[GO!!!]

Yep and many can give examples of reg force guys being left behind on rear party because they could not handle it either.  

Please do provide an example of someone pulling pole on leave or RnR, I am dieing to hear it.

tess

The best documented would be in Somalia when 2 reservists skipped out on 2 CDO. Substantiaion can be found in Rui Amaral's "eat your weakest man" and "Scapegoat" (author unknown)

The same thing happened in Bosnia in '96, 2000 and 2001, reservists just decided they didn't want to be there anymore.

You are right, the regs do have a bottom third, but there is a top third to balance them, I feel the mo lacks the experience to provide this balance.

 

[GO!!!]

Disagree on almost all counts.

First, I'd like to see some proof or even good anecdotal stuff supporting your contention that "so many" Res soldiers are "drastically" reduced in rank upon transferring to the RegF. I will offer instead that the great majority of Res who transfer to the RegF do so quite early in their Res service and thus have very little rank to reduce, and very little experience to substantiate a higher rank. As for the MWO-what MOC did he transfer into? His own? Another? What drove the decision to reduce him?

Second, your comment on the reduction of Res in rank when going on tours is inaccurate: that is no longer the policy and has not been for years. Some Res may be offered a position on a tour at a lower rank, but that is not a policy and not a mandatory reduction. The policy is to employ them at their rank.

Third, before commenting on about Res in combat, check out the number of Reservists who were in 2PP at Medak and in combat, and are wearing the commendation for it. Remember that 2PPCLI at Medak is believed to have killed somewhere from 10-30 Croat soldiers in action: a respectable total when compared to Op Apollo, wouldn't you say?

Your suggestions for employing the Res are defeatist and in any case would not produce the capabilities we need. They are already doing dom ops, alomg with their other duties. And, by the way, in today's operational environment, where is the "rear area"?. Res soldiers, given the preparation time that the Army sets for them (then often fails to give) can perform well on operations. The human qualities that make a good soldier are not confined to the RegF. Do Res soldiers have weaknesses? Yes! But your post IMHO is a broadside condemnation.

Cheers.

1) A quick look at the experience of most Inf coys would prove this. The res MWO in question was 031. I decline to name him in such a forum, on the basis that he is not the same soldier he was when he showed up 3 yrs ago. No one even suspects that he was in the mo before. I can think of 12-15 individuals who were mo MCpls and below who skipped all reg F trg and became Ptes.

2) The policy of demoting reservists may no longer be in place, but the practice sure is. In addition, how many res MCpls have you seen put under the command of a Sr. Reg F Pte? I see it all the time.

3) Third, before commenting on about Res in combat... STOP - I did'nt. I said that they should'nt be any where near it.

4) The Medak pocket was a good example - but you've been in the army about 30 yrs now, right pbi? Can a Pl defeat a Brigade of Armour w/ no heavy wpns? 2VP was tested at Medak, it was NATO air superiority that won the day - or provided the deterrent that saved it.

5) This is not a condemnation. The res needs more trg and wayyyyy more working days out of each "soldier" before they can be deployed with any level of success on anything other than ROTO 5+.

 

[dutchie]

1) A quick look at the experience of most Inf coys would prove this. The res MWO in question was 031. I decline to name him in such a forum, on the basis that he is not the same soldier he was when he showed up 3 yrs ago. No one even suspects that he was in the mo before. I can think of 12-15 individuals who were mo MCpls and below who skipped all reg F trg and became Ptes.

Again, please support this assertion with fact. If you are going to use a specific soldier as an example, you should be prepared to back the claim up with a bit more detail. If you don't want to name names, fine, but what unit was/is he from? When did he transfer? Was he 031 in the Res before?

2) The policy of demoting reservists may no longer be in place, but the practice sure is. In addition, how many res MCpls have you seen put under the command of a Sr. Reg F Pte? I see it all the time.

Another baseless load of shi-ite. There is no way a MCpl (Res or Reg) would ever be put under the command of a Pte (Res or Reg), unless the MCpl was reduced in rank first.

3) Third, before commenting on about Res in combat... STOP - I did'nt. I said that they should'nt be any where near it.

4) The Medak pocket was a good example - but you've been in the army about 30 yrs now, right pbi? Can a Pl defeat a Brigade of Armour w/ no heavy wpns? 2VP was tested at Medak, it was NATO air superiority that won the day - or provided the deterrent that saved it.

Says who? I think you better get your facts straight. I know a lot of the guys who were in Medak, all reservists of course, and to a man they tell a different story than you....and it's not barracks room bravado either.

If you want to be welcome on this forum, you need to be prepared to back up what you post with fact. As well, reserve bashing will get you nothing but a flame war.

I suggest that you read the conduct guidelines before you post again, as you have violated several of them so far.

Welcome to army.ca

 

[ArmyRick]

Hey GO? Guess what? Where do you come up with such nonsense? Plainly said. I have served both sides of the fence. I know darn well that there are many revervist who hold their weight very well in soldiering side of the house.
So tell me GO, what about the reservist who are serving as ASSAULTERS in Dwyer Hill? (No names, no pack drill, But I know a few). Maybe they can teach you how to do your job?

Lets see some facts, by the way, whats your trade? How long have you served? What tours do you have? What rank are you? Lets hear from what background your ideas come from?

 

[GO!!!]

Lets see some facts, by the way, whats your trade? How long have you served? What tours do you have? What rank are you? Lets hear from what background your ideas come from?

*Sigh*

Fine. O31, 6 yrs, Cpl, Op Apollo, Op Athena

I was also in the Mo for a year.

If you had read the rest of my posts, you would have seen that the main problem I have with the Mo is a lack of basic soldier skills, time in boots and simple experience. The fact that they only show up when it is convenient is also an issue.

By your own measure, how many reservists are at the hill - got a firm #?

Did'nt think so.

And the ones that are there are the overwhelming minority.

The point is, there should be a big thick line drawn between those of us who do this full time, and those who show up when there's nothing more interesting going on.

If in your no doubt "extensive" experienece you have not realised this, perhaps you are more a part of the problem than the solution.

Have a good one. 

 

[Guest]

In regards to the comments above from GO!!!:

i.e. ( 2. The policy of demoting reservists may no longer be in place, but the practice sure is. In addition, how many res MCpls have you seen put under the command of a Sr. Reg F Pte? I see it all the time) - What unit / sub unit are you in ?

( 3. Third, before commenting on about Res in combat... STOP - I did'nt. I said that they should'nt be any where near it.) Obviously you are very young and have little real life experience - I personally have deployed with reservists that had professionalism and experience a plenty, that I would sooner stand beside than the vast majority of Reg pers... the R031 or 031 in there MOC doesn't mean half as much as the quality of the person.

( 5. This is not a condemnation. The res needs more trg and wayyyyy more working days out of each "soldier" before they can be deployed with any level of success on anything other than ROTO 5+.) - Bull, Bull and more Bull, while I agree that larger formations should consist and be run by full time soldiers (due partially to training and experience and more than anything cohesion and attitudes), be it roto 0 or any other roto there is a place for reservists on every operation they bring not only needed manpower to our units they also bring expertise in some areas that we lack or have in short supply.

To end of my comments the majority of problems that I have seen with reservists in pree deployment and deployment is that there Regular force counterparts don't give them a chance and alienate them. This is done not for what they know or don't know or for the experience they may or may not have but due to the fact that they feel threatened that this "outsider" has been allowed in to there unit. When people one don't realise the person is a reservist or two he becomes accepted socially into the group you will usually find that they make an excellent addition to the section / unit. So my advice to all of you is that if you want to deploy as an effective force, take the best men and women available to you regardless of whether they are reg or res. Insure that cohesiveness is achieved threw prep training that not only tests and builds on there skills as a soldier but binds them together as a unit, and leave the junk behind (both personnel and attitudes).

 

[GO!!!]

Well.

I will not name my unit or any of the people I have mentioned, as there would be no point other than to provide you with more ammunition.

And:

Would you hire a part time doctor?

How about a part time pilot, with only 10% as many hrs as a pro?

Probably not.

I know I don't want to have my static line checked by someone who jumps once a year.

You are right on one point though, this forum is definitely overrun by reservists who detest any constructive criticism of their casual employment.

Keep up the good work SAS - Saturdays and Sundays

 

[dutchie]

GO!!:

Maybe your work ethic is so poor that you only do things when you must, do the minimum, and b*tch and wine when you are shown to be wrong.

I can only surmise that from these gems of yours:

"I was also in the Mo for a year." & "...the main problem I have with the Mo is a lack of basic soldier skills, time in boots and simple experience. The fact that they only show up when it is convenient is also an issue." you must be speaking form your own personal experience (and habits). Maybe you only showed up 'when it was convenient', maybe you lacked decent soldier skills, maybe you skive out of as much hard work as you can, but I (and most Reservists I know) don't.

"The policy of demoting reservists may no longer be in place, but the practice sure is. In addition, how many res MCpls have you seen put under the command of a Sr. Reg F Pte? I see it all the time."
Maybe your upset becasue your BMQ/SQ/BIQ (or maybe RMS Clerk 3's) wasn't transferred to the regs? Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Lets not take the worst stereotypes of Reservists and tout them as fact, ok? Lest us Reservists start talking about 'your job is my hobby' or 'the Regs is just organized welfare', or 'you wouldn't last 5 minutes in a civvie job'....I don't hold these beliefs, but I am pointing them out to show how ridiculous your point of view is.

 

[dglad]

I think that GO's problem is similar to that of many who post on the Internet--broad generalizations as a basis of argument.  There are, in fact, Res F pers who "show up when it's convenient".  There are also Res F pers who are loyal, dedicated soldiers, who show up for all trg, whether it's the stuff with the high cool factor, or it's time to muck out hayboxes.  I've worked with Reg F soldiers in every Regiment who I wouldn't trust anywhere near a dull butter-knife, much less a Roto 0, and Res F pers who could hold their own in the most tense stand-off, with CNN on overwatch.

That's the trouble with generalizations--they're too general.

The fundamental difference between the Res F and the Reg F is really only one thing--readiness.  Res F soldiers are, by definition, less ready than their Reg F counterparts.  A Reg F soldier should be able to deploy on short notice, onto a Roto 0; that's his or her job.  A Res F soldier has a trg delta to be accommodated; once that's been addressed, he or she is ALMOST as ready to deploy as anyone else.  I say almost, because the one lingering factor that's going to work against the Res F pers in such a situation is cohesion; the Reg F soldiers, working and living and playing together as they do, will have developed it, while the Res F will need time to do so.  But, given time, the fundamental differential between Reg F and Res F narrows, and eventually disappears altogther.  Along the way, some soldiers--both Reg and Res--will drop out, because they're not sufficiently motivated, lack basic competencies, or because of outside factors (medical, etc.)

Saying our Res F pers need more trg time is specious; take that argument to its (il)logical conclusion, and they become surrogate Reg F.  And, given the realities of the people involved and the resources required, that's simply not going to happen.  The Res F is an ideal way of maintaining a less ready pool of pers with a basic core set of skills and knowledge that is kept constantly replenished against skill-fade, without costing what the same number of Reg F pers would in terms of money, infrastructure and other resources.

As for reduction in rank--I'm not sure where GO is basing his contention this is still a widespread "practice", as there isn't even a effective procedural mechanism to make this happen.  We fill a position with what the CFTPO calls for.  If a Res F soldier wants to take a reduction to fill a post, it MAY be allowed...but only after the force generator has exhausted all other possiblities.  There are VERY rigorous policies about this sort of thing, rigidly enforced at Environmental and NDHQ level...it's not a decision that would be taken below the force generator (i.e. Area) level.

MCpl "under comd" of a senior Pte?  That would make for an interesting mil law case study, if the MCpl chose not to obey an order from his Pte "supervisor".  Frankly, any commander who would allow such an arrangement among his or her subordinates is irresponsible and completely abrogating an obligation to establish effective C2 in the organization, not to mention a fundamental duty of care.  It would be worthwhile for such individuals to be identified, so they could account for such a decision in a rational way.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Speaking from my own experience in my own unit, the guys that show up when it is 'convenient and nothing else interesting is going on' are the vast minority, and its usually due to commitments to university or other outside employment.It's because of guys like you that some reservists don't wish to go to the regs in the first place.

I would like to hear on what people you are basing these opinions on, because /most/ reservists that I know, are proud to do their job and work as much as they possibly can and enjoy doing it, as I do.

 

[muskrat89]

dglad - Thanks, Sir - for bringing this back to ground


To everyone else, tread lightly - I sense that this thread is turning south. This is a touchy issue at the best of times. It's great to see different ideas and perspectives - even gripes and beefs, but let's keep it civil.

 

[ArmyRick]

GO,
031 Athena and Apollo? 3VP or 2VP?
Lets see Reservist have become assaulters in JTF2 and other support positions, qualified Patrol pathfinders, serve in sky hawks, and oh yeah THERE are reserve pilots and doctors.

Well your so sure that reservist have their place in life? You know so much?
You will learn sooner or later when a "Toon" out performs you... It will happen sooner or later. If it hasn't already.

 

[aesop081]

Well.

I will not name my unit or any of the people I have mentioned, as there would be no point other than to provide you with more ammunition.

And:

Would you hire a part time doctor?

How about a part time pilot, with only 10% as many hrs as a pro?

Probably not.

I know I don't want to have my static line checked by someone who jumps once a year.

You are right on one point though, this forum is definitely overrun by reservists who detest any constructive criticism of their casual employment.

Keep up the good work SAS - Saturdays and Sundays

Just so you are aware......i fly every day with part-time pilots, i have no problems with that, they are some of th best pilots around.  I have served with reservists and most of them served with the dedication and knowledge and ethics that puts alot of regs to shame.  The 48th regulator ( member of this site) is one guy i will never forget, he knows what i am refering to, he is a prime example that most reservists have their witts about them.  You should check you "hollier than thou" attitude at the door.  BTW i'm regular force so i'm not reservist detesting critisism !!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And all this consternation from a guy who won't even fill out his profile. Personally, I think the guy (GO!) is just jerking your chains. A troll in internet parlance. It's a well known behavioural pattern of an insecure type of person. Half truths, general innuendo, sniping from the shadows... well, you get the idea. I don't think he's worth responding too unless he comes up with something tangible. Six years ,nowdays, in the CF does not an expert make. However, good on the ones that did respond, with fact and reasoned rebuttal. Anyway, what would I know, I'm a Reservist now, must have forgot all the thuds and gluebags I met while I was in or working with the Regs all those years.

 

[Michael OLeary]

GO!!

It is really too bad that you have joined the board with little more to contribute than a general, and undeserved, condemnation of the Reserves. I cannot imagine what is the source of your anger. No matter, your hostility is something that you will have to work through on your own.

Your perceptions of the Army Reserves, and this forum, are both flawed. It is unlikely that your breadth of experience offers you the credibility to so openly critique the Reserves or the members of this forum as a group. The range of experience on these boards, Regular and Reserve, officer and NCM, serving and retired, is impressive. You would not find a similar group to draw upon or share your experiences with in any Mess or other venue in this country.

Your posts here have only served to undermine a growing recognition that, Regular and Reserve; we are all in the same Army, with the same objective to serve our nation. You have an opportunity with a Forum like this to demonstrate that the Regular Force, which you so strongly advocate, is a reputable, effective and worthwhile force. You can use this position to help potential recruits who may be interested in a military career, to show them that your Army, your Regiment, and your trade are worthy objectives for them to aspire to. You could demonstrate that you are a soldier they will want to serve with and learn from. You haven't yet, but there is still time to salvage something and share the knowledge and skills you have to offer the participants on these boards.

Good luck.

Pro Patria

 

[dutchie]

Well said, Sir.

 

[the 48th regulator]

whew,

I'll say one thing for sure;  Thanks team for proving what a wild site this is.  A forum where we can express our ideas about something we love.  Not a voice box for some disgruntled troopy that just came back from defaulters, that needs a place to vent.

As for the victim of our ire, I advise you should just do as yer name suggests, mate.

dileas

tess

 

[bossi]

Good grief ... what a pile of ... whatever.

As for the "operational usefulness of Reserve Forces" ...
Well, unless virtually EVERY other Army in the world is wrong ... there seems to be a consensus that having a reserve component to an Army is useful.
Why?
Probably because when you need replacements or reinforcements "overnight", it takes too long to train civvies from off the street ... (and, looking at other discussions on operational tempo, it also helps alleviate the strain upon the gene pool when you've got a reserve you can draw upon).

A specific case in point has already been mentioned - the Patricia battalion that fought in the Medak pocket, which had approximately 40 per cent reservists (and, also keep in mind - due to the requisite technical skills the "specialist" platoons such as mortars and ADP were Reg Force heavy - thus, the "line" coys were reserve heavy ...).
And, yes - Op ATHENA Roto 0, too - both "specialists" and general augmentees.

Now, as to the discussion of "part time" doctors and pilots - let's keep something else in mind:  When they're not in uniform, they're working fulltime elsewhere - during the Falklands War the majority of surgeons in the task force were ... reservists ... and, as for the flying hours of Reg Force pilots given the dimishing numer of airframes ... (good grief - the more I think about it, the more ridiculous your post seems ...)

Reservists on The Ski Team?  Yes - it's a fact (and they earned their berths fair and square).  Prove it?  Don't be silly - only an amateur would ask that.

And, one more point:  Only six years of full-time service?  What about a reservist with over 20 years of full-time service ... ?

I'm glad to see this thread was dragged back onto thicker ice ...

The Reg Force needs all the allies it can muster these days - trying to drive a wedge between Reg and Reserve is one of the most foolish pursuits imaginable (unless, of course, "divide and conquer" doesn't start alarm bells ringing ...)