Phalanx for Base Defense?

[midget-boyd91]

Don't bother, just let it go. Im not on here to argue about something this silly.

 

[Petard]

Fine by me

Just consider though that a dud rate as you've interpreted is not how I think those statistics were meant to be, but that wikpedia information doesn't say either way.
By that I mean the dud rate of 95% that they give, to me, does not mean if you fire a 100 rounds, 5 of them won't work, each individual firing is an independent event. Sort of like, if the weather report says 60% chance of rain, it means given those conditions the chances are better than even that it will rain, not that it will rain for 60% of the day, and 40% of that day it won't. So for each individual firing it is at least 95% likely to work, tells me the round is more than likely going to self destruct. But then again using undefined data all kind of fits in with that old saying there are 3 kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Not sure where the information available on this self destruct lies. ;D

In any event I don't think the dud rate is that important, there are ways to work around even a 95% reliability so that people are comfortable with the risk assessment. I'm just taken aback by the generally negative outlook on this system, and so many people are eager to run it down, and I'm not just talking about on this forum either.

Land Based Phalanx system is only one part of a larger system, that, IMO, has considerable potential beyond the intercept role so many are fixated on.

 

[aesop081]

Don't bother, just let it go. Im not on here to argue about something this silly.

You decided to use wikkipedia as the source of your claims. Either deal with the consequences of that or provide something more credible.

If there is any doubt in you mind as to why your source is not credible ,watch this:

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=72347

 

[Gunnerlove]

Skyshield tried against Qassam
Lockheed Martin has modified Oerlikon Contraves' Skyshield 35 mm Advanced Hit Efficiency And Destruction (AHEAD) air-defence system to better deal with Katyusha and Qassam rockets.A Lockheed Martin representative told Jane's that in a recent series of laboratory tests, the system successfully neutralised 122 mm Katyusha warheads and an exact copy of the Palestinian indigenous Qassam rockets.

http://jdw.janes.com - 06 December 2006

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?fid=3522&lang=3

There are better options, additionally we have "upgraded" our CIWS's to block "B", we have not purchased new units and as such we have no spare systems to send anywhere.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I've read through this thread with quite a bit of interest, and if I may, have the following points to add.

WRT the blind/dud rate for the rounds fired against mortars/rockets, we all know that the 'quoted' blind rate for Cluster bombs has resulted in numerous civpop casualties, nevermind what the actual rate. I tend to agree with the argument that alot of lead flying downrange, with civilian settlements 'in the trace', probably won't engender the population to our aims.

The last time I was in Kandahar (Oct), indirect fire atks had dropped considerably from the almost daily occurrences they were in the summer, to almost nil. At least, we weren't attacked during the time I was there (2 weeks, I know, short tourer). This was not due to some newfangled high-tech star-wars-ish technology, but plain aggressive patrolling on the part of the FP elements at KAF. Obviously winter also had an effect, but I believe that it is better to deter Timothy Taleban by aggressive patrolling and dominating the ground around KAF than parking a FOGB gun on a trailer with a radar attached and hoping for the best.

But on the otherhand, I don't want to seem too much of a Luddite, and so, if technology can keep troops safe (including myself), then I am all for it. And if said trailermounted-wonderweapon keeps me from conducting said patrols and domination of ground, all the better. But it does have to be balanced.

My 2 pence anyways. Back to my lurking....

 

[geo]

was reading in the paper today that the CF's XMass road show was in KAF over the last week..... for the occasion the TB came out of hiding for two rocket attacks during the show..... critics!

 

[tomahawk6]

Saw this Phalanx story on strategypage.

Phalanx Fitted With Laser and Passes Test

January 11, 2007: Responding to an Israeli search (and offers of quick sales) for anti-rocket/ mortar systems, the company (Raytheon) that makes the Phalanx anti-ship missile system, has adapted a Phalanx to use a laser instead of a 20mm automatic cannon. The Phalanx radar can spot incoming object at up to 5,000 meters, and destroy them at up to 2,000 meters with its 20mm cannon. But by using an off-the-shelf solid state laser, Raytheon was able to detect and destroy a 60mm mortar shell (which is smaller than any current rocket) at  a range of "over 500 meters". The laser used can be powered by a generator, or commercial (off the grid) electrical power. Previous high powered lasers required a chemical energy system that was bulky, messy and expensive. If this modified Phalanx system is reliable, they could be used to protect towns and villages in areas, like southern Israel, where Palestinians fire home made rockets from Gaza. While the 20mm cannon has a longer range, the ammo is more expensive, and the shells will eventually come down in Gaza, where they may hit civilians. Then there's the expense. Even second hand Phalanx systems cost over a million dollars each. New ones can cost ten times that, although the price with the laser, instead of the complex, six barreled 20mm cannon, would be lower (perhaps $6 million each). The laser version would also be lighter, weighing no more than three tons.

 

[kincanucks]

An update - no counter artillery or mortar system will be procured by DND and therefore no system will be deployed to Afghanistan.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Saw this Phalanx story on strategypage.

Phalanx Fitted With Laser and Passes Test

That is what I was thinking would happen over in the "Portable Nuke Generator" thread.  Geez, I should be a weapon designer. 

 

[DirtyDog]

I heard from a USN friend of mine that he's hearing of these things holding off some pretty wicked mortar attacks.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I heard from a USN friend of mine that he's hearing of these things holding off some pretty wicked mortar attacks.

In what area of operations? 

 

[DirtyDog]

In what area of operations? 

Somewhere in Iraq.... he was light on specifics.

Possibly the Green Zone, but i have no idea..... I messaged him to see if he has any more info to share (simply out of curiousity) but I havn't heard back.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Keep us posted. 

 

[Fraser.g]

Here is a link from Michael Yon about the CIWZ deployed in Iraq with audio and a vid link.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/mystery-audio-i.htm

GF

 

[a_majoor]

Here is an alternative idea which could be adapted to destabilize or detonate incoming warheads with a much lower "downrange" effect on the civil population. Smaller versions might work for AFV's without the danger active defence systems like ARENA or ERA pose to dismounted troops:

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/7bd4999bc5b82110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

A Chopper Shield

Rena Marie Pacella

How do you prevent insurgents from shooting down choppers? How do you keep a cast from itching? How do you reinvent the brick? You sketch. And then you work: nights, weekends—for years, if you have to. You blow all your money, then beg for more. You build prototypes, and when they fail, you build more. Why? Because inventing is about solving problems, and not stopping until your solution becomes real.

This week, we begin rolling out the winners of the 2007 PopSci Invention Awards. We'll be doling out a new innovation each day for the next few weeks, so keep checking back for more of what the world's brightest inventors are currently cooking up. And if you just can't wait, pick up a copy of the June issue that just hit the stands.—Eds.

Name: RPG Net
Inventor: Richard Glasson
Cost to Develop: $10,000
Time: 2 years
Prototype | | | | | Product

Last January, a Black Hawk helicopter flying in rural Iraq burst into flames, killing all 13 soldiers on board. A few days later, a helicopter owned by a private security company crashed in Baghdad, killing five civilian contractors. Over the next few weeks, six more aircraft were shot down, leaving 11 more dead—one of the worst series of chopper disasters since the war began.

Although the Army won’t attribute any crash solely to an RPG—insurgents typically fire guns at the craft as well—the simple, unguided, shoulder-launched projectiles are widely believed to be the primary anti-chopper ordnance of the insurgency.

New Jersey inventor Richard Glasson thinks he can stop the attacks. He’s designed the first-ever anti-RPG system for aircraft: a volley of nets that catch the grenades before they hit. Glasson was inspired by Mark Bowden’s best seller Black Hawk Down, which recounts the 1993 killing of 18 U.S. soldiers in Somalia after an RPG brought down their chopper. “I couldn’t believe that such a low-tech weapon could take down a several-million-dollar aircraft,” he says. “That’s a spectacular outcome for a 40-year-old technology.”

Fourteen years later, still the only defense helicopters have against RPGs is avoidance: “either flying too high or too unpredictably to be targeted,” explains John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org, a military think tank in Alexandria, Virginia. Other countermeasures, such as radar jammers and flares, are worthless against unguided weapons like RPGs.

Defense companies are working on systems that would fire projectiles at the grenades to destroy them. But that’s “like hitting a bullet with a bullet,” says Glasson, who is the chief engineer at Control Products, a company that designs sensors for aerospace and defense. (He’s worked on sensors that protect gearboxes from overheating on the president’s Marine One choppers and in jet engines on most commercial airliners.) So he devised a defense that, like its target, is surprisingly simple. Since RPGs are far slower than heat-seeking missiles and are easily knocked off course, he set out to build a system that would block or at least deflect the grenades before they reached the chopper.

The key is launching that barrier in time. An RPG will detonate four to six seconds after being fired (unless it hits a solid object—then it detonates on impact). In Glasson’s system, the chopper’s radar calculates the speed and trajectory of an incoming grenade within milliseconds. Half a second later, pods of launch tubes on the helicopter aim and fire between one and eight unguided yard-long rockets on an intercept course with the grenade. The rocket’s aim doesn’t have to be precise because each drags a braided steel-cable parachute woven with Kevlar. In the next second, these fast-opening chutes inflate to form a series of six-foot-wide bombproof nets, catching the grenade and dragging it to the ground.

“He might really be on to something here,” Pike says. Glasson won’t know for sure until he can test the nets on a real helicopter, and for that he needs the backing of the Pentagon or one of its big contractors. Two years ago, Pentagon officials told him that the agency was more interested in pursuing a laser-based defense system, which is years from realization, but Glasson hopes the recent spate of crashes will convince them to take another look at his idea. Retired chopper pilot Lt. Col. James Bullinger, an editor at Army Aviation magazine, thinks they will. “When it comes to saving lives,” Bullinger says, “they will spend the money on it.”

Copyright © 2005 Popular Science