Phase 2 in Moose Jaw. Do any OJT's have questions?

[F_Guts]

Thank you.

Was he sent on the T-38 because he did not fit on the Hawk or is this now something that is done to reduce the waiting periods between the different phases of training?

While Zoomie would normally be right, the Texas slots were purchased during the Hawk grounding after the crash in Cold Lake over the summer. He and another friend are both too big for the Hawk, and are Texas-bound. Their timing is just fortunate; if the Texas slots weren't there they'd be hooped.

 

[Zoomie]

Thanks F_Guts 

 

[rotrhed]

How long ago were they there because I just spoke with a friend currently at portage and he confirmed that it is no longer on a volunteer basis.

Having recently departed a position rather involved in Ph I to PhIIA/PhII(G) selection, I can confirm that PhII(G) is indeed no longer on a volunteer basis.  A selection board takes place during PhI, slotting all successful students to either YMJ or YPG.  And while student preference is considered, performance in academics, daily flying and flight tests determines the course ranking.  Officer development also comes into play and can cause a reshuffling of ranking (particularly if someone does not display conduct expected of a developing officer).  The course is generally broken into thirds; each of YMJ and YPG will get some of the top 1/3, middle 1/3 and bottom 1/3.  Generally #1 gets what he/she wants...generally.  And depending on the slots available, there are often some unhappy campers.  You either want wings, or you don't....

 

[trampbike]

Interesting.
Do people generally want to go to MJ to fly the Harvard or prefer flying the Grob (for which the waiting period was much shorter I believe)?
Is the waiting period before phase II still much longer for MJ than for Portage?
Is it still true that if you do phase II (G), you can't go fighter afterward?

I personally would love to go rotary, but flying the Harvard for a while looks very interesting too!

 

[Zoomie]

If you attend Phase 2 (Grob) you are not a candidate for fighter training.  If at a later date you wish to try out for the Snowbirds or give it a try at being a fast air pilot, you will need to attend the conversion course on the Harvard 2 and then the Hawk course.

If you know that you only want to fly helos or heavy aircraft (multi-engine) - taking the Grob route will cut off at least 1 year in wait time.

 

[rotrhed]

A1 Trg in Winnipeg feeds 3 CFFTS the slots required for each of PhIIA and PhII(G) allocated to a respective PhI course.  When I left in October, it was split about 50/50 by PhI course of candidates wanting YMJ vs YPG.  That ratio certainly varies by course; sometimes,when A1 Trg's slots come in, everyone was happy...other times, not so much.

Zoomie makes a valid point that a candidate can not be selected for fighters out of PhII(G) in YPG so the only path to 410 is through PhII(A)  in YMJ.  In the past, many 'clever' individuals on PhI who really wanted PhII(A) attempted to avoid PhII(G) by stating their career preference was fighters, thus they should be afforded a slot in YMJ.  Nice try, but not everyone gets what they want.  Free advice: if you really want to go to YMJ and eventually fly fighters, being bottom third in academics, daily flying and flight testing on PhI will not help your case. 

 

[F_Guts]

Interesting.
Do people generally want to go to MJ to fly the Harvard or prefer flying the Grob (for which the waiting period was much shorter I believe)?
Is the waiting period before phase II still much longer for MJ than for Portage?
Is it still true that if you do phase II (G), you can't go fighter afterward?

I personally would love to go rotary, but flying the Harvard for a while looks very interesting too!

In my experience, it's generally older guys who want to get wings sooner and helo-bound guys that are more interested in staying around for Ph2 Grob, but that's a pretty big generalization. I'm unsure if anything's changed regarding the maximum allowed gap between Ph1 and Ph2 Grob, but in 09/10 it was 6 months. They didn't want you to wait any longer than that to do Ph2 Grob because the idea was not having you relearn how to fly the airframe. The wait for Moose Jaw seems to average around 14-16 months.

Aside from Snowbirds and Fighter already mentioned, you also can't come back to instruct in Moose Jaw without a conversion.

As far as the advantages of either course, no one does both so you'll probably always come out with a biased answer. I can say though that the Harvard's cruise speed is much faster than the Grob, and it's also much more complex of an aircraft than the Grob is. The benefits to that are pushing your mental boundaries and allowing you to work at a much faster pace than the Grob can teach you. The Grob, however, will push you through training faster.

The teaching environments between Bombardier/Moose Jaw and Allied Wings/Portage are pretty different as well. Bombardier's civilian ground school/sim instructors are entirely ex-military, most with fighter backgrounds and have since retired. Allied Wings' civilian side (correct me if I'm wrong) has no ex-military. The daily ops are also different, requiring you to be at work during the workday unless you leave to go the gym or something, whereas Portage will often let you go to your room in the shacks to do...whatever.

Although the syllabi are pretty similar, the schools operate quite differently from one another, and which you will prefer will come down to each individual's opinion. The guys off my PFT loved having their wings (and Captain pay) early. None of the guys who went to Moose Jaw regret having the opportunity to fly on the Harvard or learn from the pilots we did. It can be like arguing whether Civvy U or RMC is better.

 

[SkyHeff]

I know PhII(G) is fairly new, but is it a stand alone course or a continuation of PhI?

I'm in my 3rd year of the CAMP Program (Multi-IFR earned at university) and will be getting the Phase I - bypass, and was just wondering if PhII(G) may be an option? While it would be awesome to move onto the Harvard after all this cross country time I've been putting in lately, I'll be 28 on graduation of university and was deemed too tall for the Hawk at Downsview, so getting wings sooner rather than later is an appealing alternative.

Thanks,
Heff

 

[Zoomie]

and will be getting the Phase I - bypass, and was just wondering if PhII(G) may be an option?

I don't believe that Ph2(Grob) is an option for those who bypass Phase 1.  Bigzoomie will be able to confirm or deny that.

 

[rotrhed]

I don't believe that Ph2(Grob) is an option for those who bypass Phase 1.  Bigzoomie will be able to confirm or deny that.

Correct, all PhI bypass go to PhIIA in YMJ.  The reason being, is that the Grob AOI groundschool is reduced due to knowledge gained from PhI.  The requirement to upgrade certain Clearhood evolutions happens quicker on PhII(G), also due to the fact a student has already flown many of the same sequences on PhI.

When I left in Oct 2011, consideration was being given to ammending the PhII(G) program to open the doors to PhI bypass students.  I am not aware of any PhI bypass students being loaded on PhII(G) yet, as the details were still being hammered out between the various parties involved in the CFTS program.

 

[SkyHeff]

Thanks, appreciate the insight.

- Heff

 

[rotrhed]

Thanks, appreciate the insight.

- Heff

If I can offer a suggestion, it would be to ensure your chain of command (or you, if you have a dialogue already established) relay your preference to A1 Trg in Winnipeg.  Things may be different when your turn comes to do PhII and by that time, the PhII(G) program might be re-jigged to accomodate a bypass.  But if you don't make your preference known, it's a guarantee you'll go to YMJ.

No asky, no getty, as they say.

 

[trampbike]

Awesome thanks for the answers.

If I sum it up: you either go to MJ, get to fly the Harvard, have the chance to become an instructor (something I'm sure I'd love to) later and could go fighter also (all great), OR, you stay in Portage and have the possibility to get your wings sooner and if in a couple of years you'd love to instruct, it's possible via a conversion course (great also)

Looks like unless I fail, whatever happens, I'll be a happy dude.

 

[2010newbie]

Correct, all PhI bypass go to PhIIA in YMJ.  The reason being, is that the Grob AOI groundschool is reduced due to knowledge gained from PhI.  The requirement to upgrade certain Clearhood evolutions happens quicker on PhII(G), also due to the fact a student has already flown many of the same sequences on PhI.

I heard there was a maximum time limit between PHI and PHII(G) that could make a candidate ineligible for PHII(G), is this still correct? For example, I am third year university and I am scheduled for PFT this summer, so it would be at least 9 months before I would be able to attend BFT. Would I be eligible to do PHII(G) or would I have to attend PHIIA in YMJ?   

 

[rotrhed]

I heard there was a maximum time limit between PHI and PHII(G) that could make a candidate ineligible for PHII(G), is this still correct? For example, I am third year university and I am scheduled for PFT this summer, so it would be at least 9 months before I would be able to attend BFT. Would I be eligible to do PHII(G) or would I have to attend PHIIA in YMJ? 

Generally, the preference is to load a student on PhII(G) within 6 months of PhI to prevent aircraft and procedural knowledge decay.  This, however, isn't always possible and there have been students loaded on PHII(G) who are outside the 6-month timeframe.  In these cases, academic and flying progress was closely monitored.  Had there been an indication that the layoff was solely responsible for negative performance, there are means within the Cmdt's and 2 CAD's authority to rectify the situation.

From past experience, students who require 4th year university tend to be loaded on PhIIA just for that reason.  If you wanted to do PhII(G), you could request it but I suspect you'd be pre-loaded for PhIIA.  The folks in AF Trg would be best qualified to give you a definitive answer.

 

[Melbatoast]

More to that, when does a candidate's name get put on the waiting list for IIa?  I am also doing Portage this summer, but in contrast will have only finished first year university, consequently leaving two and a half or so years between flying training stages.  I would guess that II(G) is certainly out for me in that case. 

When does the waiting clock start running in cases like this, is what I'm asking.  I'm not wound up about it but am curious.

 

[rotrhed]

More to that, when does a candidate's name get put on the waiting list for IIa?  I am also doing Portage this summer, but in contrast will have only finished first year university, consequently leaving two and a half or so years between flying training stages.  I would guess that II(G) is certainly out for me in that case. 

When does the waiting clock start running in cases like this, is what I'm asking.  I'm not wound up about it but am curious.

AF Trg holds a very large spreadsheet broken down by year then by course.  Every student is on that spreadsheet and allocated to a course starting from PhI right through PhIII, as the student progresses.  The moment a student passes PhI, that name is moved to a pool awaiting PhII.  After the selection boards are conducted to determine PhIIA or PhII(G), the name is placed against an applicable PhII course slot.  This is done taking into consideration availability (ie completing 4th year), available slots/courses and any other factors that may present.  Usually, the student is informed where he/she will be doing PhII once all the students from his/her course have completed PhI (so you may know soon after your course).

My educated guess would be that you would not be a candidate for PhII(G) as that timeline is far too long, based on the current model of PhII(G).  Now, if down the road, CFTS alters the training plan to cater to long breaks between PhI and PhII(G), and builds in a 'from scratch' module for ground school and daily flying, then it's certainly possible you could find yourself in YPG doing PhII(G).  This would apply to PhI bypass students as well.  Whether or not that will happen, I can not say.

Again, AF Trg in Winnipeg would be the place to get your definitive answer, but only after you've completed PhI.

 

[Melbatoast]

That articulates all the suspicions I had, both about how the waiting system is handled and that II(G) is probably out based on the way things are now.  Thanks.

 

[stretch]

Hello, I have finished and passed the Trenton ASC for my ROTP application (I am a first year U of T student) and was told to wait for "the call" in April (this month). I am not sure how long I will be waiting, if it extends past a month and I am extremely unsure of what sort of information to expect from the call.
I am also a CT since I've been in the Infantry reserves for 5 years now and it was mentioned to me by a friend in the recruitment office that CT's are selected in a separate pool which would help my application.

I was curious if anyone could shed some light on the validity of this information and clear up some of the uncertainties regarding the information for pilot acceptance, or denial (lets hope not  )
Thanks for your consideration

 

[lstpierre]

Can anyone who has been through phase II in Moose Jaw lately (or knows the inside scoop) shed some light on how the fighter/multi/helo streams have been getting allocated at the end of the course recently? Still 50% helo 25% fighter 25% multi? Also, does anyone know if phase 2 in Portage has affected this much?