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Politics in 2016

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dapaterson said:
Read up on international conventions.  Children of people with diplomatic status do not receive birthright citizenship.
/
In that case, his parents had diplomatic status when he was born. Therefore he never had Canadian citizenship - the passport he was once issued was issued in error.

It is stated that his parents no longer worked for the Indian Embassy, but for a doctor in Nepean.  However, if we bring into question the date of 'conception', I suppose the rules would apply.  (Hopefully this hasn't brought a whole new twist to the arguments)  >:D
 
Yes. Rabble portrayed if that way.  And yeah, quoting rabble...

Anyways, he was born while his parents were diplomats.  Hence why under the vienna convention he didn't have Canadian citizenship at birth.  His parents later applied but didn't think their son had to.  He did indeed have to Nd it was ruled that he wasn't a citizen nor ever was. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/he-was-born-in-canada-but-now-the-government-wants-him-deported/article13013278/?service=mobile
 
George Wallace said:
It is stated that his parents no longer worked for the Indian Embassy, but for a doctor in Nepean.  However, if we bring into question the date of 'conception', I suppose the rules would apply.  (Hopefully this hasn't brought a whole new twist to the arguments)  >:D

Read the case.  The Doctor's testimony was tossed, as documents from the time clearly indicated that the parents held that status until two months after his birth.
 
Kilo_302 said:
I'm not sure I understand your motivation. Do you think if we cut program spending further our economy will grow?

Yes

Kilo_302 said:
Do you think it will be the type of growth that would improve the lives of all Canadians, not just the higher earners?

It would improve the lives of low income earners more than anyone.

Kilo_302 said:
Are you concerned for lower income Canadians?

A question not even deserving of a response. You are basically trying to insinuate that someone that doesn't agree with your Alice in Wonderland economics is just selfish / greedy / immoral / etc etc etc. I happen to be concerned enough for the low income earners to be against government involvement in the economy.

Kilo_302 said:
What you've provided above are talking points that seem to disagree with straightforward data that clearly shows our government has been shrinking, not growing. This means spending has been decreasing as well.

Size of government is most definitely increasing on a long-term basis.

Kilo_302 said:
You're clearly against welfare, but corporate welfare is one of the biggest net losses of revenue in Canada. This takes the form of tax breaks, tax loopholes and what can only be described as handouts. Meanwhile corporations operating here use public roads, hire employees who have public healthcare and education.

Not many people are more against corporate welfare than Thucyclides. See his thread about "let them fail." It is left-wing economics that leads to using billions of taxpayer money to intervene in the economy and prop up failing companies, not capitalism.

Kilo_302 said:
Are you suggesting that a 15% corporate tax rate is too high?

I sure would, cause its silly. But that's hardly relevant to this thread.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Do you think if we cut program spending further our economy will grow?

It's economics 101. The more you tax the people the slower your long run growth in per capita GDP will be. You will see an increase in the short run, but in the long run you are shooting yourself in the foot.
 
Flavus101 said:
It's economics 101. The more you tax the people the slower your long run growth in per capita GDP will be. You will see an increase in the short run, but in the long run you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Just wait until Trudeau and Wynne run with this ridiculous "guaranteed minimum income" insanity, you think taxation is bad now? 

Unless it's applied universally (i.e. not linked to household income) it'll do nothing more than increase the size of the welfare state and speed up the bankruptcy of Ontario.  I mean it's going to that anyways but...

For example:  If I'm making $70k/yr and my wife doesn't work (because I don't see the point in having her work solely to pay for some daycare worker to raise our children when she's perfectly capable, and frankly better equipped, to do it herself), can she claim the minimum income of $30k/yr?  Or do "I" (we) "make too much money" as a household to be eligible for that?  If that's the case, then I'm essentially working my ass off for an extra $10k/yr.

Why would I do that when I can just quit, collect the minimum income of $30k/yr along with my wife and thus have a household income of $60k/yr.

Why work for an extra $10k/yr?  To hell with it.
 
Looking at the direction Canada in general is going is just giving me a greater and greater appriciation of Frédéric Bastiat.

CombatMacgyver said:
Why would I do that when I can just quit, collect the minimum income of $30k/yr along with my wife and thus have a household income of $60k/yr.

Why work for an extra $10k/yr?  To hell with it.

And CombatMacgyver, you have recaptured the theme of "Atlas Shrugged" in a single sentance. There should be some sort of award for that.....
 
CombatMacgyver said:
Just wait until Trudeau and Wynne run with this ridiculous "guaranteed minimum income" insanity, you think taxation is bad now? 

Unless it's applied universally (i.e. not linked to household income) it'll do nothing more than increase the size of the welfare state and speed up the bankruptcy of Ontario.  I mean it's going to that anyways but...

For example:  If I'm making $70k/yr and my wife doesn't work (because I don't see the point in having her work solely to pay for some daycare worker to raise our children when she's perfectly capable, and frankly better equipped, to do it herself), can she claim the minimum income of $30k/yr?  Or do "I" (we) "make too much money" as a household to be eligible for that?  If that's the case, then I'm essentially working my *** off for an extra $10k/yr.

Why would I do that when I can just quit, collect the minimum income of $30k/yr along with my wife and thus have a household income of $60k/yr.

Why work for an extra $10k/yr?  To hell with it.

Or you could read up on studies that indicate a minimum income actually saves money in the long run by reducing the need for multiple social programs. It's far more effective for getting people out of poverty and those who are unemployed back into the work force where they will no longer require a minimum income. And guess what? That's good for the economy.

It's public policy 101. If it achieves its intended goal (to reduce levels of poverty) and saves money (by reducing reliance on several different independent programs) and in the process allows people to have greater say in the benefits they receive what's not to like?

This focus on not wanting to "pay for the poor" is ridiculous. Let's close corporate tax loopholes and stop corporate welfare. That would erase any deficit over night and still allow us to increase military spending AND a minimum income.

A trial in Dauphin MB:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12/23/mincome-in-dauphin-manitoba_n_6335682.html

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/economics/hot_eco_topics/default/11-12-15/a_big_idea_whose_time_has_yet_to_arrive_a_guaranteed_annual_income.aspx

There is little talk today among thought-leaders in Canada of a guaranteed annual income, or GAI, as an efficient and effective way to combat poverty—despite mounting evidence of rising social inequality and never-ending concerns about social exclusion. The Conference Board’s recent analysis under How Canada Performs highlighted growing income inequality among Canadians. Although it has a low profile at present, a GAI is a fascinating idea that could simultaneously serve economic, social and fiscal interests, and could be embraced across the political spectrum.
What is a guaranteed annual income? It is a minimum level of income for every individual or family in the country, delivered without condition through the existing income tax system. Earned income above the GAI could be taxed at a relatively low marginal rate, raising net income for the individual and encouraging them to work.
The concept behind a guaranteed annual income comes (surprisingly to some) from free-market economic thinkers. Fifty years ago, Milton Friedman developed an idea called a “negative income tax” to address poverty with minimal government bureaucracy while increasing workforce attachment. Friedman saw personal liberty and minimizing the role of government as fundamental values, and the negative income tax provided a way for him to address the reality of poverty with minimal state intervention. But other prominent economists like James Tobin also supported the GAI concept, which was debated at great length in the U.S. and Canada in the 1970s but never implemented. In Canada, Senator Hugh Segal has been a prominent advocate of a GAI. 1
There are three main advantages to a GAI. First, it would address poverty directly, and in a neutral fashion, via transfers provided through a single existing administrative system—the income tax system. A GAI would streamline existing social welfare programs into one universal system, reducing public administration and intervention with related savings.
Second, a properly-designed GAI could reduce the “welfare wall” of high marginal tax rates on earned income for the working poor. Earned income could be taxed at low marginal rates, providing a strong incentive for GAI recipients to work and earn more. As they work more, GAI recipients would essentially pay for a growing portion of their own GAI, through income taxes on their employment earnings.
And third, a GAI could reduce health care spending on low-income persons. The link between poverty and poor health is widely documented; so if a GAI reduced the prevalence of poverty, it could create better health outcomes and help to slow the rising costs of publicly-funded health care. The current tight fiscal situation means we should be interested in big ideas—like a GAI—that could reduce cost pressures on the health care system.
Nice idea in theory, but would it work in practice? As evidence, a social experiment called "MINCOME" was conducted by the Government of Manitoba in the 1970s, testing the impact of a GAI on the population of Dauphin, Manitoba. All Dauphin families were guaranteed an income of 60 per cent of the low-income cut-off (or LICO), as set by Statistics Canada, a level of income comparable to that under existing welfare schemes. Each dollar of income from other sources was taxed at a relatively high marginal rate of 50 per cent.
An excellent recent paper by Evelyn Forget provides analysis of the health and social impacts of the MINCOME experiment.2 Using data sources that (remarkably) had never before been assembled, Ms Forget demonstrates that hospitalization rates of MINCOME recipients fell by 8.5 per cent relative to similar non-recipients. Visits to doctors declined, especially for mental health concerns—meaning that the GAI appears to have produced a significant reduction in provincial health spending on the target population. More adolescents stayed in school to grade 12. Marital stability was maintained, and there was no evidence that fertility rates increased, or that birth outcomes changed. In short, the MINCOME experiment appears to have had some important success in terms of improving population health and reducing health costs, with few negative social costs.
If the MINCOME results could be reproduced and generalized across Canadian society, a GAI might produce sizable net fiscal savings, especially for provinces. A GAI that delivered income support through the tax system would allow the existing provincial welfare bureaucracy to be sharply reduced. Improved population health for lower-income persons could create savings on health care, through reduced hospitalization and fewer visits to doctors. And if the GAI system were properly calibrated to lower the welfare wall, greater labour force attachment and higher net income tax revenues could be achieved.
Some important obstacles would have to be addressed. An exceptional degree of federal-provincial cooperation would be required on fiscal arrangements if a guaranteed annual income were to become a reality. The costs and benefits of a GAI system would have to be assessed carefully, with detailed research and economic modelling of key elements like the level of income support and the marginal tax rate for earned income.
We expect that economic factors—like continued fiscal deficits, ever-rising provincial health care costs and tightening labour markets—would be the political drivers for GAI reform, more than social concerns. But there are solid economic, fiscal and social reasons to give a GAI serious consideration. If properly designed and implemented, the introduction of a GAI could be one of those rare moments in public policy when a win-win-win outcome is achieved, for society and for the individuals and families affected.
While deeper analysis would be needed to underpin the policy debate, a guaranteed annual income remains an appealing “big idea” whose time has yet to arrive politically. There is no better time than right now to heat up the debate.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Or you could read up....
Or to quote your own source (for the GAI story).... maybe we should just stop spending people's money with wild abandon. 

But I guess "government deficits and debt service come with a serious opportunity cost" doesn't sound sufficiently 'kumbaya' within the collective -- again, the hands are out, but they're most definitely not reaching for the check.
 
Journeyman said:
Or to quote your own source (for the GAI story).... maybe we should just stop spending people's money with wild abandon. 

But I guess "government deficits and debt service come with a serious opportunity cost" doesn't sound sufficiently 'kumbaya' within the collective -- again, the hands are out, but they're most definitely not reaching for the check.

The point here is (and it should be abundantly obvious)  that just dismissing the idea with typical conservative talking points like yours or CombatMacgyver's doesn't actually add to the discussion. There are serious people who do public policy for a living on both the right and the left who think the idea has some merit, so why not discuss it rationally without the "kumbaya" and "hand out" crap?

And again, if I heard that same concerns echoed for the loopholes and hand outs we give corporations and the wealthy that would be something, but I don't. At least be consistent in your concerns about how our government manages money.

 
Journeyman,

your story, from the same author as the piece referred to by Kilo_302, is on a totally different topic and one has absolutely no bearing on the other.

So what is your point?

BTW, for those who do not like the concept of "guaranteed minimum income", please go read up and try and understand its working before inventing the ways it would work (No, Combat MacGyver, you and your wife could not both stop working, collect $30K each, for a total of $60K and be behind only $10K without having to work).

And for all of you people out there who don't like big government, Guaranteed Minimum Income specifically saves in part because it reduces government resources that need to be allocated to its administration. Instead of 25 - 30 different programs covering situation A or situation B, etc. each of which need administration, the whole GMI scheme is administered in a single integrated manner by the Revenue department, through the income tax reporting. In the end, it does not redistribute much more than what is done by the current rainbow of programs, but does so with very little extra administration, while incorporating into the whole direct and palpable incentives to bettering one's position by working, even part time at minimum salary.

GMI schemes have been extensively studied by economists and are widely supported by well known economists everywhere. Before commenting on this, I suggest that people in here go and read on how they work from proper economists, and not on sites where lobbyist economists hide to "defend" their master's position with mumbo-jumbo pseudo-scientific articles (such as the Canadian Taxpayer federation or the Fraser Institute).
 
I suppose the first people that will get the 'Living Wage' will be all of the people, put out of work, that originally administered all the other social programs it is replacing. Oh wait.......... ::)
 
Kilo_302 said:
The point here is (and it should be abundantly obvious)  that just dismissing the idea with typical conservative talking points like yours or CombatMacgyver's doesn't actually add to the discussion. There are serious people who do public policy for a living on both the right and the left who think the idea has some merit, so why not discuss it rationally without the "kumbaya" and "hand out" crap?

And again, if I heard that same concerns echoed for the loopholes and hand outs we give corporations and the wealthy that would be something, but I don't. At least be consistent in your concerns about how our government manages money.
The point I'm making here (and it should be abundantly obvious),  is that of being contemptuously dismissive of those who, despite many examples to the contrary -- from whole, failing societies (1) to mindlessly simple yet still unsuccessful businesses (2), don't understand that those of us who work for a living get no satisfaction out of giving handouts to those who choose not to..... especially while having to listen to their repeatedly disproven theories.

Not overly fond of loopholes for business, but they are producing, employing....you know, contributing  to society. Those standing on their soapbox, waving their fists in the air about how they're so hard done by and it's EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT.... not so much.



(1) "Soviet Union," China, Bulgaria, Vietnam, Laos, etc, etc.....
(2) Kingston's The Sleepless Goat: "The Sleepless Goat Workers' Co-operative is a collectively owned restaurant and association of workers committed to shared values derived from a participatory, non-hierarchical workplace and a consensual decision making process."  Yep, they've finally shut down; yet we're expected to organize society based on the advice and example of people who can't even run a simple coffee shop. It must have been because of Starbucks' oppression.  :'(


And on that note, back to <ignore> (so you don't have to waste a lot of effort on the "ohh...oh ya?!" )
 
Kilo_302 said:
It's far more effective for getting people out of poverty and those who are unemployed back into the work force where they will no longer require a minimum income.

This assumes all people on UI want to get back into the work force.


Oldgateboatdriver said:
And for all of you people out there who don't like big government, Guaranteed Minimum Income specifically saves in part because it reduces government resources that need to be allocated to its administration. Instead of 25 - 30 different programs covering situation A or situation B, etc. each of which need administration, the whole GMI scheme is administered in a single integrated manner by the Revenue department, through the income tax reporting. In the end, it does not redistribute much more than what is done by the current rainbow of programs, but does so with very little extra administration, while incorporating into the whole direct and palpable incentives to bettering one's position by working, even part time at minimum salary.

GMI schemes have been extensively studied by economists and are widely supported by well known economists everywhere. Before commenting on this, I suggest that people in here go and read on how they work from proper economists, and not on sites where lobbyist economists hide to "defend" their master's position with mumbo-jumbo pseudo-scientific articles (such as the Canadian Taxpayer federation or the Fraser Institute).

OGBD, having read on GMI, I would agree with your assessment if GMI was implemented effectively (i.e. in a streamlined manner)...but, and you may figure where I'm going to head on this one...would Government ever implement GMI in such a manner?  I'm not so sure, adn even if they did, what would they do with the xx,xxx civil servants who used to administer the menagerie of programs (and who themselves contirbute to the GDP) prior to replacement by GMI?

:2c:

Regards
G2G
 
Good2Golf said:
This assumes all people on UI want to get back into the work force.


OGBD, having read on GMI, I would agree with your assessment if GMI was implemented effectively (i.e. in a streamlined manner)...but, and you may figure where I'm going to head on this one...would Government ever implement GMI in such a manner?  I'm not so sure, adn even if they did, what would they do with the xx,xxx civil servants who used to administer the menagerie of programs (and who themselves contirbute to the GDP) prior to replacement by GMI?

:2c:


Regards
G2G


Exactly.  Socalism only works in theory, never in implementation. People have a pesky way of messing with the theorem.  An aside; Keynesian economic theory has a snowball's chance in hell of being implemented correctly by any government party.
 
Guaranteed income only makes sense if everyone is receiving it. The idea the Ontario Liberals are floating around is both absurd and simply stupid. There intent to top up everyone below a certain points income to a specified level, reduces the desire to work, if people know they will not reach above that level or if they are only going to reach just above it. For example if the top up amount was 35,000 (pulling numbers out of thin air) and I only am going to make 20,000 why would I bother working when they will top me up the same as someone who was making 1,000?

If you want guaranteed income to work, give everyone (from the poor to the rich, income level wouldn't matter) a fixed tax-free amount, and then tax all other forms of income (do a fixed taxation rate, say 20 or 25% if you really want to see incentive to work). This way no one starves, and there is a direct incentive to work, as you get to keep your income from your work. You no longer need a minimum income threshold as you are already getting the minimum to survive. You also wouldn't need to give taxes back if everyone was taxed at a fixed rate as it would be easy to calculate the amount needed, and the employer could send the exact amount straight to the government. It would also kill the bureaucracy, make tax time much easier and prevent people from playing the system.
 
Journeyman said:
The point I'm making here (and it should be abundantly obvious),  is that of being contemptuously dismissive of those who, despite many examples to the contrary -- from whole, failing societies (1) to mindlessly simple yet still unsuccessful businesses (2), don't understand that those of us who work for a living get no satisfaction out of giving handouts to those who choose not to..... especially while having to listen to their repeatedly disproven theories.

Not overly fond of loopholes for business, but they are producing, employing....you know, contributing  to society. Those standing on their soapbox, waving their fists in the air about how they're so hard done by and it's EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT.... not so much.



(1) "Soviet Union," China, Bulgaria, Vietnam, Laos, etc, etc.....
(2) Kingston's The Sleepless Goat: "The Sleepless Goat Workers' Co-operative is a collectively owned restaurant and association of workers committed to shared values derived from a participatory, non-hierarchical workplace and a consensual decision making process."  Yep, they've finally shut down; yet we're expected to organize society based on the advice and example of people who can't even run a simple coffee shop. It must have been because of Starbucks' oppression.  :'(


And on that note, back to <ignore> (so you don't have to waste a lot of effort on the "ohh...oh ya?!" )

You really should have put Venezuela at the head of the list; a nation with massive oil reserves that managed to slide into bankruptcy and economic chaos by following socialist policies when oil was still $100/bbl (check out when toilet paper became a scarce commodity) . Alberta under the NDP should be a wonderful lab to see how fast progressivism can collapse the former engine of Confederation (it took the Liberals less than 10 years to turn Ontario from a contributing province to one needing "equalization payments", can the Alberta NDP beat that record?)
 
Journeyman said:
The point I'm making here (and it should be abundantly obvious),  is that of being contemptuously dismissive of those who, despite many examples to the contrary -- from whole, failing societies (1) to mindlessly simple yet still unsuccessful businesses (2), don't understand that those of us who work for a living get no satisfaction out of giving handouts to those who choose not to..... especially while having to listen to their repeatedly disproven theories.

Not overly fond of loopholes for business, but they are producing, employing....you know, contributing  to society. Those standing on their soapbox, waving their fists in the air about how they're so hard done by and it's EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT.... not so much.



(1) "Soviet Union," China, Bulgaria, Vietnam, Laos, etc, etc.....
(2) Kingston's The Sleepless Goat: "The Sleepless Goat Workers' Co-operative is a collectively owned restaurant and association of workers committed to shared values derived from a participatory, non-hierarchical workplace and a consensual decision making process."  Yep, they've finally shut down; yet we're expected to organize society based on the advice and example of people who can't even run a simple coffee shop. It must have been because of Starbucks' oppression.  :'(


And on that note, back to <ignore> (so you don't have to waste a lot of effort on the "ohh...oh ya?!" )

Incoherent for the most part, however if you're suggesting I'm being "contemptuously dismissive" I'll just refer you to the rhetoric from yourself and others around this policy that so far has yielded nothing but uninformed talking points as OldGateBoatDriver has pointed out.

Good2Golf said:
This assumes all people on UI want to get back into the work force.

The GAI report I posted specifically addressed this point. Only new mothers and teenagers still in secondary school worked substantially less, and for obvious reasons. Again, a live trial was carried out in Canada in the 1970s, with very good results. None of the potential problems being listed here actually happened.

Here is a link to research paper on the trial itself. I would encourage everyone to read it.

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~erw/197/forget-cea%20(2).pdf

Jed said:
Exactly.  Socalism only works in theory, never in implementation. People have a pesky way of messing with the theorem.  An aside; Keynesian economic theory has a snowball's chance in hell of being implemented correctly by any government party.

Public healthcare, public roads, public schools are all forms of socialism. Keynesian economic theory has been successfully implemented several times in several Western nations. Much of our post-war growth occurred under Keynesian economic policies.

Thucydides said:
You really should have put Venezuela at the head of the list; a nation with massive oil reserves that managed to slide into bankruptcy and economic chaos by following socialist policies when oil was still $100/bbl (check out when toilet paper became a scarce commodity) . Alberta under the NDP should be a wonderful lab to see how fast progressivism can collapse the former engine of Confederation (it took the Liberals less than 10 years to turn Ontario from a contributing province to one needing "equalization payments", can the Alberta NDP beat that record?)

We are talking about a very specific policy here, and there is quite a bit of evidence to support that it would work. Beyond horror stories in Venezuela, and speculation around Alberta based on a false premise (Alberta is already collapsing because it's overly depended on one resource, the NDP has absolutely zero to do with that. Furthermore Ontario's decline is largely attributed to the loss of manufacturing jobs, which is directly tied to NAFTA, or are you denying this as well?) , what are you offering to the discussion?

 
Eaglelord17 said:
Guaranteed income only makes sense if everyone is receiving it. The idea the Ontario Liberals are floating around is both absurd and simply stupid. There intent to top up everyone below a certain points income to a specified level, reduces the desire to work, if people know they will not reach above that level or if they are only going to reach just above it. For example if the top up amount was 35,000 (pulling numbers out of thin air) and I only am going to make 20,000 why would I bother working when they will top me up the same as someone who was making 1,000?

If you want guaranteed income to work, give everyone (from the poor to the rich, income level wouldn't matter) a fixed tax-free amount, and then tax all other forms of income (do a fixed taxation rate, say 20 or 25% if you really want to see incentive to work). This way no one starves, and there is a direct incentive to work, as you get to keep your income from your work. You no longer need a minimum income threshold as you are already getting the minimum to survive. You also wouldn't need to give taxes back if everyone was taxed at a fixed rate as it would be easy to calculate the amount needed, and the employer could send the exact amount straight to the government. It would also kill the bureaucracy, make tax time much easier and prevent people from playing the system.

I will refer you to this report as well, which found only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less under the Guaranteed Income Plan in Dauphin. There was a US experiment as well, but it didn't produce the same results. The failure was largely attributed to the fact that they didn't use a "saturation site" ie the Canadian experiment included all families not receiving an income as well as the elderly and the disabled.

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~erw/197/forget-cea%20(2).pdf
 
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