Politics in 2016
- Thread starter Edward Campbell
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Kilo_302 said:
You still haven't managed to articulate why anyone should bother working full-time and suffer multiple ex's and op's for a measly $10k annual bonus over the "guaranteed income" threshold either. You just wrote me off as some rabid right-wing conservative/republican. Is this income going to be universally applied or indexed to household income (as usual) thus making the poor richer and the middle class poorer?
Logic isn't partisan, it's mathematical.
Where x is deductions/refunds and n is your income tax bracket percentages (subject to income indexing, i.e. low income earners don't pay taxes)
(30k + 30k) - x(n/100) + x(n/100) = 60k
vice full time employment formula:
(70k + 0) - x(n/100 + n2/100 + n3/100) = < 60k
Why the hell should I work? I probably won't even be getting the 10k bonus I'm theorizing. It's more likely I'd be PAYING 10k FOR THE PRIVILEDGE OF WORKING. Why would anyone bother to work? To "better themselves" a la Star Trek?
How can you assume that the legions of able-bodied people now on making around 6k annually on welfare would be motivated to work when you give them a 24k raise simply for existing?
Even if it could be worked out to function as a mass benefit to the entire Dominion. You honestly believe the federal gov't can properly apply something like this fairly and equitably so it benefits everyone? They can't even figure out how to get us basic kit without politics and IRB requirements effing up the whole thing regardless of who's in power. Even worse Ontario is going to try it? Right... golden example of fiscal prudence there....
On top of that, none of these ridiculous theories about poverty take note that (most) people that were classified "poor" 20 years ago are no longer "poor". They've aged and moved up the income ladder as new "poor" have taken their place. The poor are typically young and beginning their careers. I was a poor, uneducated, underemployed 21 year-old at one point too. If someone handed me (and my then g/f) a free 30k/yr each I'm 100% certain that it would've - if not completely demotivated me to do anything productive - at the very least delayed said motivation for another five years.
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It's 2016. Time to make our country a truly equal place. Let's just pay everyone 30K and ban working entirely. Tear down trendy neighbourhoods and suburbs alike, and replace them with public housing. I have no idea where we will get this money, but I'm sure the plan will be fully costed!
I wonder how long it would take for the "foodies" among the liberal elite to go crazy when their only dining options are McDonald's and Tim Hortons?
I wonder how long it would take for the "foodies" among the liberal elite to go crazy when their only dining options are McDonald's and Tim Hortons?
Jarnhamar said:
Trust me , even I don't know what the heck we are doing with that much money , because our health care is completely stupid. the roads are litterally destroyed. We pay more in taxes than pretty much everybody else ....
I honestly have no clue on what is going on with us .... and I don't even think our political leaders do too ...
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They're projecting a $2b surplus this year. Seems to me like they owe Alberta and Saskatchewan $2b.Altair said:
J
jollyjacktar
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Fat chance. They won't cooperate or even apologise to Alberta in a time of need. Give money back...? :rofl:
Trust me when you ask people here in Quebec what they think about the fact that we receive more money than any other province in Canada the answer is , a lot of times , "Well we pay more taxes to the federal , and we are giving them all the electricity and all our wood , so its only right they give us more money"
I stopped trying to understand the logic that most french people here have .... because it makes no sense whatsoever
I stopped trying to understand the logic that most french people here have .... because it makes no sense whatsoever
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krimynal said:
I hope you point out the reason their tax rate is so high is the provincial tax rate, everyone in Canada pays the same federal tax rate.
PuckChaser said:
Trying to tell someone that ALWAYS wanted to leave the contry and that for him speaking english is a disgrace and that he should be PROUD of speaking french and french is the best thing out there and english is stupid , and bla bla bla ... I use to try to tell them how stupid the mentality they had was stupid .... nowadays , I'm just laughing ....
it's sad , but a lot of Quebec resident are completely clueless , they never went out of the province and if they did , they only have bad experiences because they don't understand that the Rest Of Canada dosen't speak french. I try to explain that French is an option and is not mandatory in the other provinces .... but then they question why is English mandatory in Quebec.
Usually they will make sure to NOT speak english when they travel .... it is so dumb ...
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Spectrum said:
Spectrum:
You don't need to tear down
It worked well enough in 1917.
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Altair said:
I would think that people like the families of the five Quebecers who died after being crushed under the Aut.19 De la Concorde Bridge in Montreal in Oct 2006 would probably find it wierd....
Oldgateboatdriver
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Jarnhamar said:
Spoken like a true ignoramus, Jarnhamar (but then again, you seem to be one of those "screw Quebec at all costs" people in these pages).
Transfer payments, not just equalization, which is only one part of the picture from the federal government go to ALL provinces (Yes, even Nfld and Alberta, where it constitute about 15% of provincial revenues BTW).
As for Equalization payments, their purpose is to correct for discrepancies in the tax base from province to province so that generally equivalent services can be provided on a generally equivalent taxation rate.
This means that, IF the services provided by the provinces were the same in all provinces, then the resulting provincial taxation rates would also be the same in all provinces as a result. We all know, however, as people in these fora like to remind us all the time, that Quebec provides its residents with rather more services than the other provinces, but - funny enough - it also has the highest provincial taxation level. The conclusion here, BTW, is that it means that Quebec is NOT using equalization to provide itself with more services it could not otherwise afford, but that Quebecers are actually paying for those extra services by themselves - with their own money. Period.
Going back to the equalization payments themselves, they are derived from the average figure for per capita GDP. The per capita GDP of each province is compared to the national average. Anyone with a per capita GDP below 95% of the national average gets a per capita payment to bring the tax generation capacity in line with the average (for instance, lets say province X has a GDP $5,000 below average, and $5K GDP is expected to translate into $1K of tax revenue, that province will get a transfer of $1,000 for each resident).
So what are each province getting for the last year the figures are available (2014-15, Parliamentary Budget Officer's web site): [and I will put them in descending order of per capita amount]
SK - AL - BC and NL received zero.
PEI: $2,477.60
NB: $2,205.80
NS: $1,728.10
MB: $1,367.40
QC: $ 961.50
ON $ 145.70
Purely for comparison sake here, I will provide the equalization payments for the three Federal territories, which people seldom include in their discussions: Yukon: $ 23,052.70; North-West Territories: $ 27,878.50; and (watch out) Nunavut: $ 38,797.00. Basically we, in the South are paying just about 100% of the taxes of those living in the territories.
Funny enough, I seldom, if ever, see anyone bitchin' about "Why does Manitoba/Nova Scotia/New Brunswick or PEI need so much money, what the hell are they doing in those provinces". Anyone here wants to debate that there isn't a discriminatory approach to Quebec, with racist underlying cause still existing in the R.O.C.? I am open.
Now, here is the next piece of the puzzle for Equalization. Watch out, this is a complicated concept to grasp: The residents of the provinces that receive no equalization do not pay any more than any one else in Canada for the money sent to the receiving provinces in any form or shape. They are NOT taxed extra on either their Federal or Provincial income taxes (and in fact, being above national average for GDP, probably pay less provincial income taxes or get better provincial services), they do not pay higher GST or PST (if any, again).
The Equalization payments come from the Federal government general revenue fund, that is, the general melting pot fund where all the money collected from any source by the Federal government goes. ALL Canadians pay into that fund equally (meaning same tax rates for any type of Federal taxes) regardless of where they are located.
Ah! Ah! You say: people in those "rich" provinces will still pay more because they are rich. Well: No. a rich person in those provinces will pay exactly the same as a rich person in any other province. Same goes for a poor person in either provinces: There is NO extra charge imposed in any way on the residents of the "rich" provinces.
Surely the government must collect more from those provinces, you say. Well, the Federal government does not compile where it gets its revenue from. But Statistics Canada keeps data on various revenue streams and where they are paid from, etc, so a compilation is possible and, lucky for us, some people take the time to do those compilation.
The latest one I could find ( http://thoughtundermined.com/2012/07/22/a-closer-look-at-federal-revenues-and-expenditures-by-province/ ) is for 2009, which is great because we are at the height of the oil boom in Alberta; Saskatchewan and Newfoundland - the oil prices hadn't even started to tank. Let's deal with Federal revenue from various provinces as a percentage of total revenue:
ON: generated 40% of revenue
QC: generated 18% of revenue
AB: generated 17% of revenue
BC: generated 13% of revenue
All the other provinces and territories, together, generated the last 12% of federal revenue.
What this means is that, at the height of the oil boom, Albertans - without being taxed any differently than anyone - contributed a little less (1%) than Quebecers themselves towards the equalization payments made to the Government of Quebec.
So I suggest we all can the bullshit where equalization payments are concerned.
krimynal said:
Criminal, I don't know where you come from, but I have lived most of my life in Quebec and I have never ever heard what you refer to. If you want to make such statements, I strongly suggest you back them up with references. Quite to the contrary, most people I know here feel ashamed of receiving equalization and would like nothing better than get off them. The only unfortunate problem is that (as in any province) there is a disconnect between understanding the problem and seeing solutions you can translate into the political arena successfully (such as, in QC's case, removing the self-imposed barriers we have put in the way of our businesses so they can flourish).
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That line of thinking has worked so well since the French Revolution that it has been applied again and again in many different times and places. With resounding success stories like Russia 1917-1989, Germany 1933-14, Cuba, China 1950-1978 Cambodia, Venezuela, etc. it isn't surprising that it took the occupying Red Army to ensure that Eastern Europe enjoyed socialism until the fall of the wall, or the enormous police states that are employed to retain socialists in power once they have eliminated all opposition and bureaucratic regulatory states which strangle people in red tape are really only different by a matter of degree. Look at the rhetoric against opponents when people flout or defy the bureaucratic regulatory state, and think how short a step it is to move from rhetoric to action).
Sadly, knowledge and wisdom come from first hand experience, so we will continue to ride the merry go round....
Sadly, knowledge and wisdom come from first hand experience, so we will continue to ride the merry go round....
I happen to come from a Quebec Family , with Quebec roots , from Donnacona - Cap-Sante - Princeville - Villeroy. You can look it up if you want , dosen't get much quebecer than that.
Most of the family / extended family / friends are french Quebecers. Most of the person I worked for we're French Quebecers. Most of the people I went to school with were french Quebecers.
You want fact ? just walk down any day in Quebec Downtown. Note here that I havn't said Montreal but QUEBEC downtown. Go to any french school in Quebec. How about look up at "L'office de la langue française" Were you get fined if you put "Barber Shop" on the display of your store.
We Can go all day about what french people think about Canada , and what Canada thinks about Quebec.
I was Born in Whitby Ontario, came back for a good ammount of years in Quebec , went back to Ontario then was doing stint of 1-2 years on each side. I've seen both side as a CIVILIAN, as a CHILD, as a STUDENT.
Please don't act like if Quebec was proud to be in Canada when the 2012 Election was won by the PQ which were basically promising a new "referendum" and when right now the PQ is behind one of the biggest separatist there is in Quebec in Pier-Karl Peladeau.
In the army , yeah most french quebecers are aware that there is life over the freaking bridge and that there is no shame in beeing bilingual .... sadly this is not the mentality of MOST baby-Boomers and elders here in the province
Most of the family / extended family / friends are french Quebecers. Most of the person I worked for we're French Quebecers. Most of the people I went to school with were french Quebecers.
You want fact ? just walk down any day in Quebec Downtown. Note here that I havn't said Montreal but QUEBEC downtown. Go to any french school in Quebec. How about look up at "L'office de la langue française" Were you get fined if you put "Barber Shop" on the display of your store.
We Can go all day about what french people think about Canada , and what Canada thinks about Quebec.
I was Born in Whitby Ontario, came back for a good ammount of years in Quebec , went back to Ontario then was doing stint of 1-2 years on each side. I've seen both side as a CIVILIAN, as a CHILD, as a STUDENT.
Please don't act like if Quebec was proud to be in Canada when the 2012 Election was won by the PQ which were basically promising a new "referendum" and when right now the PQ is behind one of the biggest separatist there is in Quebec in Pier-Karl Peladeau.
In the army , yeah most french quebecers are aware that there is life over the freaking bridge and that there is no shame in beeing bilingual .... sadly this is not the mentality of MOST baby-Boomers and elders here in the province
Oldgateboatdriver
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Dear Krimynal,
Leaving aside your vitriolic ramblings, I note that you have not provided any evidence of people in Quebec (as a generalization - not one individual here or there) propounding the views you presented, and which I refuted.
Addressing some of your ramblings, however, I must state the following:
As you were born in Ontario, to parents with roots in Quebec I assume, and seem to have alternated between Ontario and Quebec (apparently the City - not anywhere else in the province), I would say it is quite easy to "get much quebecer than that". But it is irrelevant to the point. (I also assume that the four towns whose name you throw out there are the location of you grand parents - hence four of them - as Donnacona and Cap-Chat are two neighbouring villages, as are Princeville and Villeroy, neighbours on either side of highway 20.).
I must say I feel for you having only downtown Quebec City as your reference: comments heard there from the "locals" have as much to do with reality as comments heard downtown Ottawa have to do with the reality of Canada. Those are places completely engrossed in the politics of the capitals that they are. I must add here that on top of that, Quebec City is the most chauvinist, bigoted and closed minded city I know of in Canada.*
The reality of Quebec is found in Montreal, the Eastern Townships, the Lower Laurentians and the Beauce, where 60% of the population lives and 75% of the economy is found. Until you meet and mingle with these people, don't think you know how quebecers think just because you have had exchanges with Quebec city "citizens".
Next, lets deal with your peeves: No "Barber Shop"? Bull. As long as you have a French sign that says Barbier and it is bigger than the English one, you are entitled to the "barber shop" sign and the "Office" won't bother you. But if you don't like that, stand for office and then, once elected, change the law. If the law is still there, it's probably because most of the population has no problem with it. Of course, you probably don't know where all this comes from, not having lived through the language riots in Montreal in the 1960's and 70's as I have. You probably have never seen French Canadian store clerks at Eaton being fired for speaking French to another french Canadian they were serving at the store. I have.
How about that 2012 election now, eh! 31% of the electorate gave Pauline Marois a minority government after the scandal of party financing and contracts fixes badly tainted the liberal government. Funny enough: the PQ did not run its campaign primarily on holding another referendum (would hold it IF winning conditions exist only), while the liberals even tainted got only 1% less votes than the PQ and the third party (CAQ) got 25 % on the promise that they would not even talk about the independence/federalism debate AT ALL for minimum ten years. So you tell me how that election taints the quebecers pride in Canada? Same goes for your next point about the PQ (how, at 28% of the vote - but even less for their "option" - do they represent all quebecers?) getting behind Pierre-Karl Peladeau. Of course the PQ will get behind a separatist: That is what they are. But they are in the opposition also !!!
BTW: most baby boomers and elders live in the Greater Montreal Region, where most of us (from both sides of the divide) are sufficiently fluent in both language, if not tri-lingual (yes, my Italian is pretty good).
You want Canadian pride: I suggest you attend pro sports events in Montreal. People sing the national anthem with as much if not more gusto than in many other Canadian cities (actually, more gusto than I have ever seen in Ontario, and about as much as I have seen in the Prairies). Also: we always sing the bilingual version, something, I have noted, that the Prairies teams in all sports (hockey, Football and Soccer) reciprocate - thank you very much - while our very neighbour Ontario, which pretends to be bilingual, does not. In fact, the Ottawa Senators insist on singning the anthem in English only - in the National Capital - and then, they are surprised when the people from Gatineau in attendance support the Canadiens instead of the Sens ????
*: Personal experience here: We moved to Quebec when I was 13. We came back to Montreal 10 years later. Meanwhile I had attended the last two years of High school, College, completed two university degrees at Université Laval and served 7 years with the local naval reserve unit. I have struck in that time no friendship that stood the test of time. Same goes for my three brother and sisters or my parents. We were never accepted and were always "strangers from Montreal" [P.s. we are as French Canadian as can be: our direct ancestor was amongst the very first group of french settlers]. I then attended university in Sherbrooke for only three years and made no less than five friends from the local population (not in university at all) and from Quebecers from other region of the province that are still ongoing 30 years later.
À bon entendeur, salut!
Leaving aside your vitriolic ramblings, I note that you have not provided any evidence of people in Quebec (as a generalization - not one individual here or there) propounding the views you presented, and which I refuted.
Addressing some of your ramblings, however, I must state the following:
As you were born in Ontario, to parents with roots in Quebec I assume, and seem to have alternated between Ontario and Quebec (apparently the City - not anywhere else in the province), I would say it is quite easy to "get much quebecer than that". But it is irrelevant to the point. (I also assume that the four towns whose name you throw out there are the location of you grand parents - hence four of them - as Donnacona and Cap-Chat are two neighbouring villages, as are Princeville and Villeroy, neighbours on either side of highway 20.).
I must say I feel for you having only downtown Quebec City as your reference: comments heard there from the "locals" have as much to do with reality as comments heard downtown Ottawa have to do with the reality of Canada. Those are places completely engrossed in the politics of the capitals that they are. I must add here that on top of that, Quebec City is the most chauvinist, bigoted and closed minded city I know of in Canada.*
The reality of Quebec is found in Montreal, the Eastern Townships, the Lower Laurentians and the Beauce, where 60% of the population lives and 75% of the economy is found. Until you meet and mingle with these people, don't think you know how quebecers think just because you have had exchanges with Quebec city "citizens".
Next, lets deal with your peeves: No "Barber Shop"? Bull. As long as you have a French sign that says Barbier and it is bigger than the English one, you are entitled to the "barber shop" sign and the "Office" won't bother you. But if you don't like that, stand for office and then, once elected, change the law. If the law is still there, it's probably because most of the population has no problem with it. Of course, you probably don't know where all this comes from, not having lived through the language riots in Montreal in the 1960's and 70's as I have. You probably have never seen French Canadian store clerks at Eaton being fired for speaking French to another french Canadian they were serving at the store. I have.
How about that 2012 election now, eh! 31% of the electorate gave Pauline Marois a minority government after the scandal of party financing and contracts fixes badly tainted the liberal government. Funny enough: the PQ did not run its campaign primarily on holding another referendum (would hold it IF winning conditions exist only), while the liberals even tainted got only 1% less votes than the PQ and the third party (CAQ) got 25 % on the promise that they would not even talk about the independence/federalism debate AT ALL for minimum ten years. So you tell me how that election taints the quebecers pride in Canada? Same goes for your next point about the PQ (how, at 28% of the vote - but even less for their "option" - do they represent all quebecers?) getting behind Pierre-Karl Peladeau. Of course the PQ will get behind a separatist: That is what they are. But they are in the opposition also !!!
BTW: most baby boomers and elders live in the Greater Montreal Region, where most of us (from both sides of the divide) are sufficiently fluent in both language, if not tri-lingual (yes, my Italian is pretty good).
You want Canadian pride: I suggest you attend pro sports events in Montreal. People sing the national anthem with as much if not more gusto than in many other Canadian cities (actually, more gusto than I have ever seen in Ontario, and about as much as I have seen in the Prairies). Also: we always sing the bilingual version, something, I have noted, that the Prairies teams in all sports (hockey, Football and Soccer) reciprocate - thank you very much - while our very neighbour Ontario, which pretends to be bilingual, does not. In fact, the Ottawa Senators insist on singning the anthem in English only - in the National Capital - and then, they are surprised when the people from Gatineau in attendance support the Canadiens instead of the Sens ????
*: Personal experience here: We moved to Quebec when I was 13. We came back to Montreal 10 years later. Meanwhile I had attended the last two years of High school, College, completed two university degrees at Université Laval and served 7 years with the local naval reserve unit. I have struck in that time no friendship that stood the test of time. Same goes for my three brother and sisters or my parents. We were never accepted and were always "strangers from Montreal" [P.s. we are as French Canadian as can be: our direct ancestor was amongst the very first group of french settlers]. I then attended university in Sherbrooke for only three years and made no less than five friends from the local population (not in university at all) and from Quebecers from other region of the province that are still ongoing 30 years later.
À bon entendeur, salut!
ballz
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Oldgateboatdriver said:
Agreed. Quebec's got a real hard go and everyone should feel sorry for critically thinking about what their tax dollars are going towards.
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Yes, all provinces receive transfer payments, something the silly federal government imposed on themselves. However, not all receive equalization. Quebec receives more equalization than anyone, yet has services that no other province has such as $7 dollar a day daycare. Generally, when a taxpayer sees a welfare recipient driving a brand new 50,000 truck that the taxpayer can't afford, they get a little irritated. This has nothing to do with racism.
Oldgateboatdriver said:
That assumes that each provincial government is run as efficiently as the next. That is just not the case.
Oldgateboatdriver said:
That conclusion does not match up with reality. The money, both equalization and provincial tax revenues go into one pot, Quebec's revenues. The services are paid for out of that pot. You mention the "one pot" below, so you must be deliberately be foolish.
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I bitch about it all the time. But of course, you must recognize that the gross amount going to Quebec is the largest, and they have the most services, so naturally they are the prime example most people are going to gravitate towards. Calling this "racist" is just trying to stifle legit criticism.
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Federal taxes would be (should be) lower across the board if equalization didn't exist, as the Federal government's expenses would be lower and so they could afford to have lower revenues. So yes, taxpayers in other provinces are most definitely helping to pay. If my income tax money and GST money goes into the general revenue pot, and the general revenue pot pays Quebec equalization, well... I can't really make it any clearer than that...
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I don't think anyone is arguing there is.
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Ah yes it does, its published every quarter by the Department of Finance in their financial reports. Income tax is by *far* the greatest contributor to Federal government revenues. Personal and corporate income taxes make up about 62% if Federal government revenues, so we can easily see that personal and corporate income taxes' share of equalization payments is 62%.
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