RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy

[ModlrMike]

While I applaud the decision in broad terms, I fear it will have the opposite effect of what is intended. Having seen the troops go stark raving mad on R&R in the Balkans, and in Cyprus when we came out of Afg, I'm not sure this will make it better.

 

[Stoker]

When the Whitehorse incident first blew up we were at sea and was due to be in St.John's a few days later. Obviously everyone was concerned that any further incidents would be dealt with harshly and no one wanted to be "that ship". We went to the Jr ranks and asked them to collectively come up with some ideas to police themselves as the alternative was to restrict alcohol consumption while alongside. So what they came up with was 4 drink maximum, duty driver to bring you home no questions asked, if you're duty the night before you had to be back on board by 2am and everyone was to be on board the night before we sailed by midnight. It worked out well.

 

[Cronicbny]

What did the Wardroom and CPOs come up with to mitigate?

 

[Stoker]

What did the Wardroom and CPOs come up with to mitigate?

Everybody was involved with the developing the measures. Everyone on board was under the same rules and everyone agreed that it needed to be done. No one said that you couldn't get drunk, as long as it didn't bring discredit to the RCN. The buddy system was emphasized to ensure your winger got home safely and without incident.

 

[V_I_Lenin]

I am curious what the policy is in the British Navy?

I recall the Brit Jimmies on Mount Gola sending down garbage bags full of empties while their Canadian counterparts (Bosnia 2VP 1997) were still suffering through the Army's long, dark winter of abstinence. It seemed to me that their CofC had a much more mature attitude towards the consumption of alcohol. In any event, that tour saw the start of the new alcohol policy...two beers, per-man, per-day, with a punch card to keep track. The same policy was in effect during my third tour of Afghanistan (Kabul 2004), but I believe it was subsequently eliminated...

 

[mariomike]

I am curious what the policy is in the British Navy?

Reply#20
http://army.ca/forums/threads/100324/post-1322847.html#msg1322847

 

[McG]

What was the previous policy in the RCN?  We're there daily limits or restrictions on time and/or place?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

At sea, you were limited to not more than two beer or glasses of wine. You could not consume alcohol 6 hours before a watch (12hrs for aircrew) and were never permitted to be intoxicated.

For certain operational sails (Most CJOC operations), alcohol consumption was not permitted at sea and even in port, in some cases.

Alongside, there were no limits on alcohol consumption, as long as you were not on duty, within published bar hours and did not breach the general CF provisions on drunkeness and misconduct.

So, there have always been perfectly serviceable control measures. As long as they were enforced.

 

[PuckChaser]

So, there have always been perfectly serviceable control measures. As long as they were enforced.

Maybe we've found the issue then...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

No shit. But, punishing everyone is easier than actually holding COs to account. Apparently.

 

[Cronicbny]

We can (and do) enforce the rules and follow through with admin and disciplinary measures - granted, some units more than others (not everything will lead to a UDI nor should it in all cases). The tools are certainly in the toolbox. That being said, even with the full force of the CSD and DAODs we have to accept that people will still get into trouble no matter how strong the Command Team and no matter what controls are in place. Even IF we dont allow people ashore at all in foreign ports, there will always incidents - at home. The number of people under some sort of admin or disciplinary process for Impaired driving, drug trafficking and other criminal issues continues unabated. Are we to hold Command Teams responsible for everything, at all times, with no exceptions? If so i cant help but wonder how quickly NSPB files peter out...

I am of the mind that we should continue to support Command Teams when they follow the process(es) as outlined in the References to hold people to account. As it exists today there are many hurdles (AJAG, CMs, DMILC, politics of course) standing in the way of efficient and suitable military justice.

 

[Navy_Pete]

At sea, you were limited to not more than two beer or glasses of wine. You could not consume alcohol 6 hours before a watch (12hrs for aircrew) and were never permitted to be intoxicated.

For certain operational sails (Most CJOC operations), alcohol consumption was not permitted at sea and even in port, in some cases.

Alongside, there were no limits on alcohol consumption, as long as you were not on duty, within published bar hours and did not breach the general CF provisions on drunkeness and misconduct.

So, there have always been perfectly serviceable control measures. As long as they were enforced.

A lot of people never drink at sea as well to start with, aside from some special occasions like banyans etc, and even then, pretty limited.  I think I've had maybe half a dozen beers at sea over two years (with about 15 months away), and that's not atypical.

There was always the option though, and the few times I did, it was to unwind with a few friends over a beer after months of hard work paid off with a deployment that went well.  Things were always wound tighter when operational, but you have to keep in mind that there are weeks of routine straight transits to get from point A to B sometimes where the tempo drops off to normal day to day business.  That kind of allowed people to 'decompress' a bit on board so they were more normalized when you get back home.

There are plenty of existing options in place to deal with anyone that wasn't disciplined and broke the rules in place; if they can't trust the crews to be adults then we probably shouldn't be trusted with billion dollar warships.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I am of the mind that we should continue to support Command Teams when they follow the process(es) as outlined in the References to hold people to account. As it exists today there are many hurdles (AJAG, CMs, DMILC, politics of course) standing in the way of efficient and suitable military justice.

Yup......but as long as there's no pressure on "Command Teams" to make the effort to jump those hurdles, then we just get the "Oh, he/she [or I] will be posted soon and somebody else's problem."

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I will agree with this- Commanding Officer's hands are often tied by NDHQ staff who will not accept a recommendation to release chronic crap disturbers.

But guess what? Those chronic crap disturbers are not going to be deterred by these new rules, either.

Once again, the innocent vast majority get punished for the sins of the few.

 

[Stoker]

Perhaps we should be taking some of the extra cash being generated from the increased alcohol sales and but it towards port activities, tours etc. Give the sailors something to do if they choose.

 

[Cronicbny]

The extra cash will inevitably go to the ships funds - so your wish will probably come to fruition Chief

 

[Jarnhamar]

Perhaps we should be taking some of the extra cash being generated from the increased alcohol sales and but it towards port activities, tours etc. Give the sailors something to do if they choose.

Wouldn't extra money go to PSP and NPF or something?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Not directly. The ship's fund and all messes onboard a ship are separate and distinct from any base organization.

The only real nexus is that Canex is the warehouse, through which goods are purchased for sale onboard a ship. Their profit potential stands to diminish, if quantities of bulk alcohol purchases from ships decline.

I have never seen a shortage of funds from any mess on any ship that I have been on to support outings and activities off of the ship.

 

[OldSolduer]

We have the military that Canada, particularly that some politicians and "peaceniks" want:

Toothless and emasculated.
The Air Force has aging aircraft. The Navy has no tankers to supply the fighting ships. Of all three the Army is best off, and we worried about pips and frickin crowns.
Rant over.

 

[McG]

Wouldn't extra money go to PSP and NPF or something?

A Ship/Unit find is NPP (NPF apparently being a bad word now).  The money gets invested back into goods and services for the crew.