RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy

[Scott]

Nobody is talking about going on the piss while at sea- under the current rules, that is already prohibited.

I know this. It might not be aimed at me, but I would never try to suggest that it was about going on the piss.

And a naval vessel is not just a workplace, it is also a home- for sometimes up to 9 months at a time. A guarantee no one spends 9 months straight on an oil rig, nor does anyone consider it a home.

I never said anyone does spend that time on a rig or platform. However, we do consider it home.

The issue I keep coming around to is that this new policy is in response to misconduct that occurred in port. Exactly how does banning alcohol at sea address misconduct in port? And how does adding new policy work when (apparently) the old policy wasn't being enforced. What we have is an enforcement (read command) problem, not an alcohol problem. I can gaurantee that drinking on ships will continue- it will just be driven underground.

Fair point, agreed on all.

I don't (or very, very rarely) drink at sea due to my position. I have seen more fires and other emergencies at sea than I care to list. A no alcohol policy, on the face of it, makes my life easier. On the face of it. The fact of the matter is that I am a leader of adults, not children. My job is to treat them like adults and respect them, not take the easy way out and always say no. This new policy is essentially an admission that ship level leadership is now so poor that they cannot be trusted to treat a ships company like adults and lead and motivate them to good behaviour. That is why I am horrified, because the long term implications are frightening.

I can't comment fairly on leadership issues. I know your posts well enough to trust what you say completely, and I appreciate the angle you approach it from.

I have it easy - it was never an option for me in my career offshore, so I don't miss what I have never had. It does get discussed, every now and then, at our dinner table and it's generally agreed that we do not want what we do not have.

My approach to this has always "been on the face of it"

 

[jollyjacktar]

No perhaps about it.  It is another one of the thousand cuts that is being inflicted or at least that will be the impression to some of those who are affected by it. 

Just because it's a simple solution doesn't mean it's the best or most effective for the long haul.  Sometimes "simple" solutions come from a lazy mind and attitude from those who could not give enough of a shit to rise to the occasion.  There are already policies in place that deal with this subject, however, it appears there are those who could/would not take the time and effort to enforce them satisfactorily.  So the end result is this knee jerk reaction at PR damage control... ( BZ!  :sarcasm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting tradition should trump safety but despite the spin the MSM has put on this, being at sea is not an episode of MASH or Carnival Cruise Lines.  We don't spend our off watch hours getting hammered and partying.  That, for some was a foreign port pastime and if conducted on board could be regulated by the bartenders and duty watch with an eye on the sailor's well being and seeing him/her safely to his rack if need be.  Now, with jacking the prices to downtown, why stay on board?  They'll be more likely to go ashore and it might be a recipe for heart break more often as happened twice this past year on deployments where two sailors went ashore and died.  Of course there is a "simple" solution to that problem too.  Cut out/down port visits... oh wait, they're doing that already.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Scott, I think you are only looking at one part of the story here; all the reported incidents over the last few years while the ships were tied up alongside.  I browse through the court martial results once in a while, and I can't remember even one incident of anyone being charged with drunkeness while on duty at sea, which is what should happen if you didn't follow the existing restrictions.

I think if you want to compare it to being on an offshore platform, this is more like you are banned from alcohol during those 14 days of your shift, then on your time off, you are still sitting on the platform, and under similar restrictions, which they also are jacking the price up of.

To recap, there were no incidents of this affecting the safety of anyone while on duty.  This is a reaction to people not behaving on their time off, and a new policy on top of the existing CAF level and already particularized RCN ones.

Again, not the end of the world, but given that morale is already pretty low from the decade of lack of funding to the Navy and resource restrictions impacting things like maintenance and ship availability, crew shortages resulting in jetty hopping, and pay/benefit cuts, so this won't help retention.  Also, things that traditionally happen on ships, like RPCs after promotion, department parties when you get in to port and a few other things like that were you generally get to know the people you work with better and become friends rather then just colleagues won't be affordable, which will have a negative ripple through unit cohesion.  It's really noticeable between a shore unit on the coast and a ship already; so I think this will just further contribute to growing sense that you're just punching the clock to get a paycheck.

We have some of the best trained sailors in the world, and the vast majority of them are extremely professional, so a disproportional group punishment like this over the actions of a few won't be well received.

 

[Scott]

Just because it's a simple solution doesn't mean it's the best or most effective for the long haul.  Sometimes "simple" solutions come from a lazy mind and attitude from those who could not give enough of a shit to rise to the occasion.  There are already policies in place that deal with this subject, however, it appears there are those who could/would not take the time and effort to enforce them satisfactorily.  So the end result is this knee jerk reaction at PR damage control... ( BZ!  :sarcasm

Even this safety guy hates it when people take the path of least resistance simply to avoid working a problem.

I've got no experience with the Navy, so tell me: your guys with ER roles, do they rotate between jobs depending on being on watch or off? i.e., will someone see themselves moved from a fire role to something else deeding on their tower? And do the boats have any peers who have no ER role whatsoever?

For example: I have two dedicated ER teams of 6 each, a dedicated hospital/stretcher team of 6, and a command team of about 12. Then we have a muster controller and a cox and assistant cox for the rest of the people. Everybody else just stands there during a muster. We do not switch roles between on/off tower.

 

[Scott]

Scott, I think you are only looking at one part of the story here; all the reported incidents over the last few years while the ships were tied up alongside.  I browse through the court martial results once in a while, and I can't remember even one incident of anyone being charged with drunkeness while on duty at sea, which is what should happen if you didn't follow the existing restrictions.

Pete, I understand.

I think if you want to compare it to being on an offshore platform, this is more like you are banned from alcohol during those 14 days of your shift, then on your time off, you are still sitting on the platform, and under similar restrictions, which they also are jacking the price up of.

Fair enough.

We have some of the best trained sailors in the world, and the vast majority of them are extremely professional, so a disproportional group punishment like this over the actions of a few won't be well received.

Which is almost uniformly the case in instances like this, military or not. I can't make that bitter pill taste any better, it is what it is.

I can admit it, I am not above reassessing. I repeat, however, on the very face of it this is alcohol in the workplace. That's unwinnable. That said, deeper down, I have no problem believing that it had been controlled by you guys without issue. I said in the beginning, I didn't really care about booze and boats before this because it had never been an issue.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Scott, I am by trade an HT.  We, along with the other Marine Engineering Department trades (Stokers and Electricians) the main backbone of the DC Section Base Teams 1 (Fwd) and 2 (Aft), SBT3 takes care of the Hangar and Flight Deck and it's composition will include Air Detachment personnel when we have them with us, Fire Fighters (the fourth MED trade) and HT, the Flight Deck ET and Stoker plus if there is no Air Det embarked, the SWOAD (Sailing without Air Det) personnel which come from other trades such as Bos'n etc.  There are also other teams that comprise of the emergency response teams for the ship.  There is SBT4, a manning pool of off watch people usually from the Combat Ops Room trades, Casualty Clearing Teams (Medical folks, Stewards etc) and Emergency Repair Teams from the Combat Systems Engineering Department.

Of the Engineering Trades the Stokers and ET stand watches.  HT are day workers, unless they are employed as Helo Crash Rescue FF with SBT3 (I'll get to them), we also stand rotating watches in HQ1 either monitoring the damage control systems (DCS)  as the HQ1 Watchkeeper or Roundsmen, lastly the guys in the shop rotate as Duty HT to take care of any repairs that come up after normal work hours (0800-1600).  SBT3, if there is an Air Det attached then they are there whenever there are air ops going on, in addition the FF/HT who make up the flight deck helo crash rescue team also provide a RAT (rapid attack team) they get booted and spurred in a matter of a few minutes and are they first response until one of the section base teams attack teams get to the scene to relieve them.  RAT is a very successful concept and quite often take care of things before they get out of hand, however, if they are conducting air ops RAT is not available as they're looking after the flight deck.

So long story short, if you're not on watch you're off duty so to speak.  If an emergency happens which requires the ship to go to either Emergency Stations Fire/Flood etc) or Action Stations then you are expected to head to your respective Section Base and do your thing.  Everyone is trained to do shipboard firefighting and flood repairs, although it is the SBT who will do that at sea.  Everyone therefore has a role to play in keeping the rest of their shipmates safe at sea so we can get home to our families.  I guess the only dedicated team of the same guys is RAT and HT's as the rest (Stokers and ET) stand watch and might not be available for emergency/action stations. 

Not too convoluted for you to follow I hope, Scott.  That is sort of the abridged version and I may have missed something in there...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

How long are your shifts off shore?


Don't remember if I've brought it up but in Bosnia (  :warstory: ) there was a 2 drink limit per day. I found that placing a limit on people;
1. seemed to prompt a lot of people to make sure to get their 2 drinks a day.  Where someone may or may not really be inclined to drink every day now they were drinking at least 60 drinks a month.
2. it almost challenged some people to try and drink more than 2 drinks a day just to prove they could.



Obviously just hearsay but I've heard enough stories (navy alcohol antics)  that makes me genuinely surprised this hasn't happened sooner.

Most of the antics happen while in port so saying "no drinking at sea" is like giving someone antibiotics to treat a virus.  It gets the person out of the emergency room but does nothing to treat the actual the actual illness. 

Scott, my comment ref Smokey Smith was a joke but I was still alluding to something.

I am an infantry officer by trade, with this in mind, if the Government of Canada expects me to pick up a rifle and go put a bullet into another man, is it an unreasonable demand that when I am finished my hot and heavy patrol I can't come back to the FOB and have a nice cold can of Alpine Lager?  I don't see a sailor finishing his duty and retiring to the mess as being any different in this regard. 

We gave the QR&O's, CSD, CFAO's, DAOD's, etc... For a reason.  Of course taking a different course in the above instance would actually require the CAF to empower its leadership.  Unfortunately, we tend to subscribe to a more top down, micromanagement style which this decision is a perfect reflection of.

I understand your POV but I don't agree with it.  I'd like to see the Navy leadership challenged on this decision in an open house.

 

[Scott]

jollyjacktar, thanks for that. Clear and understood. Thanks for taking the time.

Drew, I don't think your Alpine at the FOB is the same as someone on a vessel, but we could pick nits all day long on that. I don't care to and I'm certain you don't either. Suffice to say we both have our points, I think we both respect one another's, and we can both see the ups and downs of each. I am happy with that.

I haven't forgotten how pissed off I was on Persistence when we were told we couldn't have a beer. I still believe that young men crowded around older/wiser/more experienced men, with a beer or two, tend to open up more and sort out more issues. I am still a big fan of a small bar in a volunteer fire hall, I have seen and benefitted from this. So, again, I can handle being a tad hypocritical here - because I know for a fact what the black and white answer is, no matter what the upsides are.

I also grant that this was a rather gutless decision made from the top.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Scott,

Forgive me for stating that oil rigs were not homes to the crews. I had wrongly assumed that the crew viewed them more as a work site.

This is pretty much an academic debate, as the decision has been made and I don't have much (if any) sailing remaining in my future.

 

[Scott]

Scott,

Forgive me for stating that oil rigs were not homes to the crews. I had wrongly assumed that the crew viewed them more as a work site.

This is pretty much an academic debate, as the decision has been made and I don't have much (if any) sailing remaining in my future.

No worries at all. I find a lot of people are surprised at what we get up to in our spare time on the platform. It's important to overall health. Besides the gyms, we have nightly poker games, bingo and crib once a week, hockey pools, etc. We also probably do the same as you guys, we sit and bitch, we wind one another up, we share stories. If it weren't a little bit of fun it would suck a whole lot. It is a workplace, but it's also home for half the year, minimum.

Sorry for the tangent.

 

[chrisf]

And a naval vessel is not just a workplace, it is also a home- for sometimes up to 9 months at a time. A guarantee no one spends 9 months straight on an oil rig, nor does anyone consider it a home.

I spend about 6 months a year on an oil rig, I assure you, it is a second home and considered as such.

When you consider transit times, and training, I spend more time living on the rig than I spend in my actual home.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We also probably do the same as you guys

You guys play Gay Chicken too?  ;D

 

[The Bread Guy]

You guys play Gay Chicken too?  ;D

What is Googled cannot be ungoogled ....  :facepalm:

 

[cryco]

that is one disturbing game. You made me search too.

 

[chrisf]

You guys play Gay Chicken too?  ;D

Gay chicken?

If you're going to do it, get in there, don't be such a wuss about it.

 

[cupper]

Why in God's name would you even consider googling such a thing?

:facepalm:

You only have yourselves to blame for the traumatic experience you put yourselves through. :nod:

 

[zerosum]

procedure (mindless):
x=: drinking on ship
y=: drinking on shore
if problem with :
ban (x):
end mindless:

 

[daftandbarmy]

This new policy is essentially an admission that ship level leadership is now so poor that they cannot be trusted to treat a ships company like adults and lead and motivate them to good behaviour. That is why I am horrified, because the long term implications are frightening.

You mean like the horrendous drug problems they have in J.P. Jones' Navy?

 

[misratah500]

There is a trend in the last few years that I see in the navy and a lot of the older guys are saying it's to drive people out intentionally.

In the 90's they wanted to shrink the military by use of the FRP and what they saw was the young guys take the pay out get out and then get back in many years later. Instead of forcing the older guys to retire like they thought would happen.

The morale in the navy has been low for several years now and it just seems like it's a death by a thousand cuts that are just driving people to pull the pin.

These things include:

Freezing PLD (2010) and constant rumors of it's removal
Loss of Sliders (2012)
Modified Daily Routine Gone (2012)
Loss of 2 Shorts at Xmas Time (2013)
Switching Duty Watch back from 7 man to 10 man with no next day off (2014)
Stoker Spec Pay Freeze ( 3 years now I think?)
Loss of Blue Boat in Victoria (2012)
Paid Parking in Halifax (2014)
Less fun port visits (Personal Opinion)
Can't wear uniform in public (2014)
General mistrust of crews (Mandatory Bag Checks going on and off boat) At least mine.
More working foreign port visits (Personal Observation)
Weak leadership leading to punishment as a whole navy
Rumors of tinkering with our pensions from best 5 years to whole career
Sailing on Fridays or Weekends and coming back on Mondays

I've talked to a lot of people in the C&PO's on the west coast and they and myself seem to think it's all calculated to drive people out the door and get costs down. Do more with less. They know the new ships are going to require half the billets to man, so we're not going to need as big a navy right?

This is all just my wild theories and conjecture, but if you look at all these little changes that we've seen in the last 5 years it just shapes up to be a shitty picture. I have 11 years sea time myself so I have definitely seen a change since when I first started sailing in 2002.

 

[OldSolduer]

Just a quick observation I noticed recently is that the current government in its obsession to 'bring back the past' has actually killed more real traditions (those that were actually maintained) than any other government likely since PET.

Just with the Navy alone for three quick examples (I won`t even begin to go into detail on the other things lost as we have all heard it before) we have lost Sliders, Drinking at sea, and Beards on ship (that were a big part of Naval Tradition).

Some of what you speak of is self inflicted. Beards are a risk when doing CBRN tasks. Sliders I can't speak to but other RCN pers told me it was an Admiral's direction.
We're run by a bureaucracy IMO