RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy

[Monsoon]

Notice he is a CMDR now.  So he has been promoted since this incident.

In fact the results of the promotion selection board were released just prior to the incident.

 

[Ostrozac]

Anyone fresh off the Presiding Officer's Training?

What's the story for an offense that occurred when you were a Maj/LCdr but charges not laid until you are a LCol/Cdr? Still eligible for summary trial by formation commander, or is it an automatic court-martial?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/hmcs-calgary-officer-charged-with-drunkenness-disobeying-orders-1.2239963

Whoops.  Some one just stirred the pot again!

Not making excuses for this individual but its a pity, I sailed with said individual when he was on the East Coast and he is one of the few who truly cared for his subordinates and who actually had a clue on what he was doing.

 

[cupper]

"Pour encourager les autres" maybe?

 

[dapaterson]

Anyone fresh off the Presiding Officer's Training?

What's the story for an offense that occurred when you were a Maj/LCdr but charges not laid until you are a LCol/Cdr? Still eligible for summary trial by formation commander, or is it an automatic court-martial?

I believe it will be determined by his rank when the charge is laid - so no summary trial.

NDA 164 provides no saving provision. Indeed, if a Maj screwed up, got charged as a Maj, and was then promoted before the summary trial, my read is that the trial would have to become a court martial.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/FullText.html

 

[Naval Reservist]

I don't know about everyone else but I feel that when Mark Norman is replaced this policy will be abolished and something close to the old one will be reinstated. ;D

 

[OldSolduer]

I don't know about everyone else but I feel that when Mark Norman is replaced this policy will be abolished and something close to the old one will be reinstated. ;D

Don't count on this. Once a policy like this is in place it's rarely rescinded.

 

[Pusser]

Don't count on this. Once a policy like this is in place it's rarely rescinded.

Well, the Americans did repeal the Vostead Act (which was enacted to carry out the 18th Amendment - Prohibition) once they realized that it was stupid, ineffective and caused more problems than it never solved.

A more recent Canadian naval example occurred when the Navy allowed the sale of tobacco in ships and shore establishments again after it had been banned for a year.  However, in that example the banning order did have a "get out of jail card" in that it included a clause that the policy would be reviewed after one year's time.  After it was reviewed it was realized that the ban was stupid, ineffective and caused more problems than it never solved.

Alas, my gut feel is that Mr Seggie may indeed be right this time.

 

[Naval Reservist]

I think I may transfer over to MARS Officer just to become the next vice admiral. Then I will reinstate alcohol aboard ship, heck while I'm at it I'll reinstate rum rations as well. :bowing:

 

[Lightguns]

Well, the Americans did repeal the Vostead Act (which was enacted to carry out the 18th Amendment - Prohibition) once they realized that it was stupid, ineffective and caused more problems than it never solved.

A more recent Canadian naval example occurred when the Navy allowed the sale of tobacco in ships and shore establishments again after it had been banned for a year.  However, in that example the banning order did have a "get out of jail card" in that it included a clause that the policy would be reviewed after one year's time.  After it was reviewed it was realized that the ban was stupid, ineffective and caused more problems than it never solved.

Alas, my gut feel is that Mr Seggie may indeed be right this time.

The policy is in keeping with the expected temperance of the military by our civlian population.  The drunken fools of Canada don't liek their uniforms to be crunken fools.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Repealing an Act that applies to all is not the same thing as changing a policy that only applies to specific number of public servants. In any event, it did not result in alcohol being available to American seaman onboard ship, did it?

As for the cigarette example, its not really the same thing at all. Lets face it, that policy was secretly aiming to induce seaman that smoked to quit. The "no sale of cigarettes onboard meant that these smokers had to bring all their cigarettes with them on deployment: For a four to six month deployment, that could mean anywhere between 15 to 30 cartons of cigarettes for a single seaman. Once He put that in his locker, it used up half the space !!! So, they would "chance" not going south or north, or wherever, and leave some of their other gear home - and be found missing it if the ship changed destination. 

So what happened: The extra cartons got put back in the bonded stores (even though they were duty paid) for storage and the stores holder now had to account not only for their presence onboard but also for which ones belonged to whom and keep a running tally (i.e. Bloggins has twenty cartons, and today he came and got one, so he now has 19, while Billy has 9 and Jack has 13, and I got Bloggins to sign, so he wouldn't argue we stole some later, etc.). The whole thing became a nightmare and did not discourage a single (well maybe a single) seaman from smoking.

Alcohol is different because while available in the messes (and still is, just not at sea or at a reasonable price), no one, other than the CO, is allowed to bring his own booze onboard or stow some in his own locker or space.

 

[Jed]

Repealing an Act that applies to all is not the same thing as changing a policy that only applies to specific number of public servants. In any event, it did not result in alcohol being available to American seaman onboard ship, did it?

As for the cigarette example, its not really the same thing at all. Lets face it, that policy was secretly aiming to induce seaman that smoked to quit. The "no sale of cigarettes onboard meant that these smokers had to bring all their cigarettes with them on deployment: For a four to six month deployment, that could mean anywhere between 15 to 30 cartons of cigarettes for a single seaman. Once He put that in his locker, it used up half the space !!! So, they would "chance" not going south or north, or wherever, and leave some of their other gear home - and be found missing it if the ship changed destination. 

So what happened: The extra cartons got put back in the bonded stores (even though they were duty paid) for storage and the stores holder now had to account not only for their presence onboard but also for which ones belonged to whom and keep a running tally (i.e. Bloggins has twenty cartons, and today he came and got one, so he now has 19, while Billy has 9 and Jack has 13, and I got Bloggins to sign, so he wouldn't argue we stole some later, etc.). The whole thing became a nightmare and did not discourage a single (well maybe a single) seaman from smoking.

Alcohol is different because while available in the messes (and still is, just not at sea or at a reasonable price), no one, other than the CO, is allowed to bring his own booze onboard or stow some in his own locker or space.

This policy will ensure future problems on ships for years to come.  The rules will be broken, and when they are broken some of those events will be spectacular, media rich, events. As long as policies broad brush all the good folks and treat the problem children the same as the rest; history shows you can expect this result.

 

[shadreamer]

The ban will be quietly lifted if and when retention numbers go down as a result of this. Could be the proverbial straw for many to pack their sea bags. Time will tell.

There will always be troublemakers in any organization or branch. Taking away privileges from the majority because of the actions of a few is short sighted.

 

[PuckChaser]

Nobody is leaving the Army or the RCAF because we can't drink on deployments. Anyone suggesting that this alcohol policy will have a negative result in retention numbers clearly believes RCN members have an issue with alcohol consumption in the first place.

Would I have loved a few beer after a mission in Kandahar? Damn right. Did I threaten release/remuster because I couldn't? No way.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yes, by and of itself it shouldn't be a deciding factor for some to leave the RCN (there may be one or two that will see it so).  But, it is a gigantic burr under the saddle blanket.  One more thing that dissatisfies people and enough straws will break any camels back eventually.  If you suck every last bit of enjoyment out of a job or career for your employees they will start to ponder "why stick around".  The fun meter has been moving more towards the empty mark more and more these past number of years.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think this will probably have a big effect on the messes though; usually already pretty rare to have a mess event, but if it's about the same price to have a beer on the ship as downtown, hard to see a good reason to relax after work in the mess for a beer with a few friends, other then pure convenience.  And if there are a bunch of restrictions around that alongside, going to make it even less attractive.

Still don't see anything that couldn't be dealt with by simply enforcing the previous rules though.  Given the number of sailors this is still pretty isolated in the grand scheme of things.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Is this our new 'Black Tot' day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tot_Day

Doubtless, in 1972, there were those who guessed that everyone would quit then, too.

 

[NavyShooter]

First port visit coming up post policy change.....

 

[OldSolduer]

Still don't see anything that couldn't be dealt with by simply enforcing the previous rules though.  Given the number of sailors this is still pretty isolated in the grand scheme of things.

And you are correct. Disciplinary and administrative measures may be used. Banning a legal substance is a lazy way of dealing with issues like this.

IMO it will take an Admiral with big brass ones to reinstate your old policy, or temper this one.

 

[Naval Reservist]

IMO it will take an Admiral with big brass ones to reinstate your old policy, or temper this one.

If that Admiral does exist, and so chooses to speak up. He/She is a true leader and will earn the respect and admiration of his subordinates, for that is what a true leader is. Someone who earns respect vs. someone who uses pure rank for respect.