RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy

[Humphrey Bogart]

Some of what you speak of is self inflicted. Beards are a risk when doing CBRN tasks. Sliders I can't speak to but other RCN pers told me it was an Admiral's direction.
We're run by a bureaucracy IMO

Someone with an agenda is looking to make CDS

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Just a quick observation I noticed recently is that the current government in its obsession to 'bring back the past' has actually killed more real traditions (those that were actually maintained) than any other government likely since PET.

Just with the Navy alone for three quick examples (I won`t even begin to go into detail on the other things lost as we have all heard it before) we have lost Sliders, Drinking at sea, and Beards on ship (that were a big part of Naval Tradition).

Ditto on the beards. CRBN
By sliders do you mean small hamburgers?
You guys can't handle your booze so you lost the privilege.  ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

Some of what you speak of is self inflicted. Beards are a risk when doing CBRN tasks. Sliders I can't speak to but other RCN pers told me it was an Admiral's direction.
We're run by a bureaucracy IMO

Sliders - scuttlebutt throughout the fleet is that in some quarters it was changed as counter to what they feared might be public perception on such a ghastly tradition.  I don't know if said public were aware of sliders, or had an opinion on it, but, the Admiral who was at the helm when the change was implemented is not remembered kindly by most of the sailors.

Beards - safety issue and is quite frankly no issue except for a few diehards whom you couldn't change their opinion of it at any rate.

Booze - it is believed almost universally, amongst the rank and file, there have been some Admirals who have been gunning and waiting for an excuse, any excuse, to kill it off if they can.  There have unfortunately been a couple of deaths while ships were in port overseas and said deaths were believed to have alcohol as a contributing factor.  WHITEHORSE, well that too was in port, but seems to be the straw that broke the camels back on the issue.  Reactions from what I have been hearing is mixed.  There are some who applaud and many who don't.  Time will tell if this policy decision was prudent or if it will blow up in the PR face of the navy one day down the road.  Debate will no doubt continue on this for some time to come.  My personal opinion is that it was a knee jerk reaction as these decisions sometimes are, there will be tears, but I don't see it going back to the way it was.  It is said that "Booze is NOT unauthorized at sea, you can have it during special events like Banyans"  The cynic in me sees the next step is to outlaw Banyans.  (that, will take care of the loophole methinks...).  Again, the Admiral who was at the helm for this decision is being called names in some quarters that are unprintable and probably chargeable under numerous statutes    he won't be fondly remembered by the matelots.

 

[OldSolduer]

Maybe the public didn't know about sliders. But what if they did? You can be sure a very vocal minority may have stood up and asked "why are we giving CF members a half day off per week? They are paid to be there so they should be there. "

As for the beard issue, you are "one off " case.

As for drinking, the wife of a fellow Snr NCO asked many years ago "why are youallowed to drink at lunch hour? You guys handle weapons and alcohol should be a no no"

Guess what....

 

[Tibbson]

The beard issue is one I could give or take.  As for sliders and drinking, I never got that one even though I spent years in Halifax.  My guys got time off when it was earned or needed for worthy personal issues and no drinking was allowed any time on duty or deployed so I see these two issues more as coming around to match everyone else. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Maybe the public didn't know about sliders. But what if they did? You can be sure a very vocal minority may have stood up and asked "why are we giving CF members a half day off per week? They are paid to be there so they should be there. "

As for the beard issue, you are "one off " case.

As for drinking, the wife of a fellow Snr NCO asked many years ago "why are youallowed to drink at lunch hour? You guys handle weapons and alcohol should be a no no"

Guess what....

Even with enough stubble you can have a hard time getting a seal; you need that skin to rubber contact for it to be airtight.

On the plus side, the new leave manual allows the CO to grant half a day of short, so you can now substitute sliders for actual leave to compensate people if you want to do the paperwork.  As a manager, it is a big disatisfier though to not be able to sort that stuff out on your own; this drives it to micromanaging at a high level.

The rule on drinking at sea before was nothing 8 hours prior to going on shift, and no more then 2 per day.  For a good chunk of the crew, you almost never or very rarely have the eight hours off depending on your rotation, and if you did, you'd probably be relaxing for half hour with a beer before racking out.  Even for the 'day workers' they'd could be on watch during the night, so it was limited, and plenty of them never drink anyway due to the risk of fire/flood or general after hours work.  I'd say a better analogy was being confined to base after work , but being unable to have a drink in the mess after you were off.  Also the base is about 450 ft long, 50 ft wide and about 5 stories high with 200+ other people in it.  And it's constantly moving.  And noisy.  and all the air is recirculated.

Not that it really matters, but they've done nothing to address the actual problems, which was people going on benders and being irresponsible.  At least before there would be a portion having too much to drink and getting confined to the ship; now there is no incentive to do that if it's roughly the same price as ashore, so I can see more people getting up to shenanigans.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

What's the big deal about mini hamburgers?

 

[jollyjacktar]

What's the big deal about mini hamburgers?

They don't want to see us getting fatter. 

As for drinking, the wife of a fellow Snr NCO asked many years ago "why are youallowed to drink at lunch hour? You guys handle weapons and alcohol should be a no no"
Guess what....

When I was on OP CARIBBE in 2011 the locks were on when we were in the "box", which is to say there was a possibility of having to have fingers touching stuff that goes bang.  Although the first time for me to have this restriction, it wasn't an issue with the crew and we were fine with it.  When we were out of the box, the locks came off and we were free to have a cold one if able.  Again, no issue or problem.

In a foreign port, if you were drinking on board and tried to go ashore, it wasn't happening.  You were kept where you were safe and could be looked after.  Now, if there's no real incentive to staying on board they will have lost the ability to keep a grip on things that they can monitor.

I have heard through the grapevine (not confirmed) that FRE has both Cinderella leave (back on ship by midnight) for the whole crew with the exception of a select one or two approved hotels for overnight leave in foreign ports.  If you stay out, you will be required to muster each morning at 0700 hrs to check on your welfare.  Sounds like fun...not.  We're turning into the USN little by little and they have all sorts of issues come up.  PR heads exploding all over the place at times.  The big boys may yet rue the day they clamped down on things.

 

[Stoker]

Sliders were gotten rid of when it got so bad that on Fri afternoon's the dockyard was deserted. FMF complained that their wasn't anyone on the ships to look after work and thus affected maintenance, that's why it went. Nothing yet on first night protocol. There are already measures in place in foreign port such as be back on board at 2am if your duty, 12am if sailing the next day and 0730 welfare check no matter where you are. Also if anyone gets into the sh#t they will probably have the max fine and stoppage of leave imposed.
Prices on board have already been adjusted with beer at $3 and a oz of liquor $3. So at $120 a forty, there's going to be lots of dust in the beer and pop stores me thinks.

 

[kratz]

Prices on board have already been adjusted with beer at $3 and a oz of liquor $3. So at $120 a forty, there's going to be lots of dust in the beer and pop stores me thinks.

Great, more spaces to check during cleaning stations. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Calling in from a hotel of your choice, is different from staying at one or two "approved" sites and showing up in the flesh to report.  As I say, I can't confirm it, it may not be true.  Same goes for the Cinderella leave rumor too. Have also heard first night protocol rumours of confined to ship for all with a Club ### night for entertainment. 
 
Prices of beverage will make a difference on staying on board or going on a shore run.  If the gang goes on a run, they can't be monitored for safety as they could on ship.  Things have a bigger chance to go pear shaped now than before, as our American cousins find in most foreign ports for some of the crew.  That's one reason they have a brig on major vessels.

 

[Stoker]

Calling in from a hotel of your choice, is different from staying at one or two "approved" sites and showing up in the flesh to report.  As I say, I can't confirm it, it may not be true.  Same goes for the Cinderella leave rumor too. Have also heard first night protocol rumours of confined to ship for all with a Club ### night for entertainment. 
 
Prices of beverage will make a difference on staying on board or going on a shore run.  If the gang goes on a run, they can't be monitored for safety as they could on ship.  Things have a bigger chance to go pear shaped now than before, as our American cousins find in most foreign ports for some of the crew.  That's one reason they have a brig on major vessels.

The last time I was in foreign port (St.John's), that's what we did. I had a approved pass you be at my parents house, so I called in. I would imagine Fred made up some of their own rules in absence of direction. This also depends on what area you are in, when we in Columbia we used the buddy system. You signed out with your buddy and had be back with him, if you didn't you be charged. TOR when last in St.John's did exactly what we did.
I believe there is no appetite for first night protocol.

 

[jollyjacktar]

This, what we're hearing, is a new direction.  Totally different and more restrictive rules.  Hell, even CHA was restricted to 2 beers while in Italy during OP MOBILE.  A more nanny state, state of mind seems to be taking over the risk adverse big whigs more and more these past few years now.

 

[Jarnhamar]

As far as beards and CBRN go in the Navy I don't think it's that much of an issue.

The ship can just sail out of the big stink cloud.
If there is a CBRN threat then members need to go to full protective state. Does every member on board have access to a working CBRN suit? 

If anything I'd be most concerned with how ship safety/fire-fighting equipment is affected by beards (which I know zero about).

Charging standard price for alcohol? Giver.

The thing about alcohol though.... from the minute someone joins the CF they're surrounded by a culture of alcohol. New recruits earning the privilege of being allowed in the mess and having drinks to 2 beer limits at the smoker at an end of an ex to 1500hrs Friday afternoon mandatory beer calls at the mess.
We can't condition people from day one of their career to use alcohol then act surprised when they misuse it or become dependent.

 

[Tibbson]

This, what we're hearing, is a new direction.  Totally different and more restrictive rules.  Hell, even CHA was restricted to 2 beers while in Italy during OP MOBILE.  A more nanny state, state of mind seems to be taking over the risk adverse big whigs more and more these past few years now.

Seems like we heard these kinds of comments back when booze was restricted on deployments but the world didn't come to a crashing halt then so I don't suppose it will now. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Seems like we heard these kinds of comments back when booze was restricted on deployments but the world didn't come to a crashing halt then so I don't suppose it will now. 

No, you're right.  Life will carry on.  My comments, however, cover not just alcohol. 

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Life will, indeed, carry on.  It is just sad to see those who sail treated a little less like adults and to watch those that cause the problems that the rest of us wear, to essentially skate away.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Don't need to tell you but...welcome to the army.  Same shit different pile.

 

[Pusser]

The rule on drinking at sea before was nothing 8 hours prior to going on shift, and no more then 2 per day.  For a good chunk of the crew, you almost never or very rarely have the eight hours off depending on your rotation, and if you did, you'd probably be relaxing for half hour with a beer before racking out.  Even for the 'day workers' they'd could be on watch during the night, so it was limited, and plenty of them never drink anyway due to the risk of fire/flood or general after hours work.  I'd say a better analogy was being confined to base after work , but being unable to have a drink in the mess after you were off.  Also the base is about 450 ft long, 50 ft wide and about 5 stories high with 200+ other people in it.  And it's constantly moving.  And noisy.  and all the air is recirculated.

Not that it really matters, but they've done nothing to address the actual problems, which was people going on benders and being irresponsible.  At least before there would be a portion having too much to drink and getting confined to the ship; now there is no incentive to do that if it's roughly the same price as ashore, so I can see more people getting up to shenanigans.

The statement in yellow is actually not true.  There has never been an actual individual consumption limit on booze at sea (until now).  The two beers per day is actually only an ordering limit we apply for the embarkation of duty free beer (i.e. Customs allows us to embark a maximum of 2 cans X the number in the ship's company X 90 days).  However, the only limits on consumption were the time prior to one's next watch and the rule that one was not allowed to become intoxicated.  A day worker (i.e. one without a watch to stand) who could drink four beers in a sitting and not get drunk would not be in violation of any regulation.

 

[Sub_Guy]

The statement in yellow is actually not true. 

Actually when I was on Op Toucan, we did have a two beer a day limit.  The bartender had a nominal roll of the junior ranks, and he would check off your name if you had your two beer.  This also made it easy to drink more than two beer, as they quickly figured out who wasn't drinking, so those who didn't drink, did in fact drink (on paper).