George Wallace said:
When it comes to traditions, many have their roots in ancient religions. Many of our Military traditions are also from ancient rites. You seem to feel that we don't need these traditions.
No. I have not said that, nor have I suggested that. Traditions must be assessed on their individual merits (something you seem unwilling to do). We cannot say all traditions are good and should be kept, and we cannot say that all traditions are bad and should be done away with. This was precisely the point of my allusion to the cavalry tradition. If it were kept solely for being a tradition, instead of evaluated against the ineffectiveness of horses against machine guns, artillery, and massed rifle fire, then we might still have been dying on horses instead of fighting in armoured vehicles.
You also fail to acknowledge that many traditions that were religious in origin are no longer religious.
George Wallace said:
Let's see......Have you or do you ever plan on celebrating Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, Lent? Have you ever celebrated Mardi Gras, Fauschin, Carnival, Halloween? Do you celebrate or believe in St Patrick, St Barbera, St Michel, or any Patron Saint? Have you set up a Christmas tree? Have you celebrated Strove Tuesday, Ash Wednesday, or Dirty Thursday? Would you go to the Olympics? If you have answered "Yes" to any of these, then you have proven yourself to be a hypocrite. All of these have some Religious origin, not necessarily Christian.
Yes, these have religious origins, but they can all be celebrated in a secular fashion. Even Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving can be secular celebrations (and to many it would not make a difference if you renamed them as â Å“the great winter celebration of Friends and Familyâ ?, â Å“The Spring Celebration of Familyâ ?, and â Å“The Fall Celebration of Familyâ ?). I realize this may be anathema to anyone of Christian faith, but Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny have been elevated above their holidays' religious roots in modern pop culture.
. . . but, if it makes you feel better, I have volunteered for duty the past two Christmas holidays.
George Wallace said:
Unfortunately, no matter how much you want to deny it, there are Religious undertones to most of our lives. Many of our military traditions are religious in origin, some predate Christianity. . . .
Deny your wife or girlfriend a small gift, flowers, or a dinner out on the fourteenth and see how much religion plays a part in your life. You are free to go through life and deny its' existence, but it will always be there, whether you like it or not. St Valentine's Day, although arising more out of a Pagan religion, is still a religious event.
Again, religious origin does not mean that a practice is still religious.
George Wallace said:
... I feel that some respect and courtesy towards the beliefs of your comrades is a lot better than the sham that this Officer pulled off. ... Although he did try to get out of the ceremony, I feel he showed bad taste in his actions. I do agree that his superior, who knew of his beliefs, showed poor leadership qualities in not exempting him and is also "guilty". I am really peeved at the PC way that this incident played out, and feel the whole thing was wrong--both parties are guilty.
Agreed. However, what is the long term solution? I do not think that having an opt-out for parades is the way to go. The alternative is for the military to stop introducing religion into ceremony.
George Wallace said:
So we have no need for Tradition or Heritage? Did we not form up in three ranks 10, 50 100, 150 years ago? I suppose you suggest we just form up in a gaggle now? No need to follow tradition when it comes to drill. No need to salute senior officers. No need to pay any form of courtesy to a superior? While we are at it, why not throw out all our tactics, they haven't changed much over the last hundred years?
Once again, you highlight your inability to view specific arguments against a specific tradition. To you they are all equal and unassailable. We still form into ranks and do drill because it teaches discipline and reflective obedience to lawful command. We still salute because it reinforces the importance of the chain of command. We do not ride into battle on horses because we would be ineffective and die. We do not fight in three ranks because we would be ineffective and die. Note that I did not have to refer to anything as â Å“traditionâ ? to justify or dispute its practice. Each tradition must be considered on its own merits.
muskrat89 said:
I guess, to understand "our" point of view - we see the erosions of traditions as the beginning of the erosion of military values, principles, etc - whether they are "religious traditions" or otherwise. The argument has been made about many impractical, old traditions falling by the wayside, and I agree. The continuance of a tradition should be evaluated on practicality and value to the soldiers and/or Unit - not the Human Rights Commission.
Agreed, but when the CoC is not evaluating those traditions on merit, what other course is open to a soldier? Perhaps, If our Lt(N) had chosen to redress instead he would have found more sympathy from the rest of us.
