Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[the 48th regulator]

As long as people keep their beliefs to themselves, everything is cool.

hehehe aye forty ate, mahn guess what....

tess

 

[buzgo]

Do many people really see religion as an active force in their lives anymore?

To me, Easter is just a long weekend - Christmas is a time for family, that has nothing to do with religion. I have a vague awareness that people might go to church, but honestly, the people in my social circle/family don't go to church and don't overtly practice any particular faith. I'm not baptised, neither is my wife, and our child will not be either - I can accept that people are religious but it really doesn't affect my life in any way.

And before you say "well, you can do the Easter weekend duty" - I'm a shift worker, so it doesn't really matter to me, chances are that I'm working half the stat days anyway!

 

[LF(CMO)]

I've been a bit reluctant to post this.  So if some see it as 'trite', please forgive me.

When I was in grade 11, we got a new Socials teacher.  He told us that there was "no God", that was just "superstition".  When I told my Dad that at the supper table that evening, he just looked up and said, "let him spend one night in a foxhole with me and he'll know there's a God by morning!"
A brief disscription of my Dad's service WW II.  US Army Inf, pt Sgt, Two purple hearts, Bronze Star.  Guadalcanal, New Georgia, New Guinea, Northern Luzon, PI.

Broke down and cried (in front of the Family) when informed by phone that his Padre Father John Mahoney had past away.  Just some  food thought for all of us that have never experienced 'the mournful cry' of the battlefield!

 

[KevinB]

signalsguy

That is YOUR right to feel that way - I disagree with your line of thought but who am I.


Heck I don't believe in the chain of command - can I opt out and use the charter to protect me?  :

 

[buzgo]

Its fine to disagree, and I wasn't trying to push any buttons with my post. I really don't know if people are religous. I think that this site takes a very slim slice out of society AND the military so chances are that things are skewed anyway. Really though, is religion a part of peoples lives? Do you think  about it on a daily basis? Its totally foreign to me, thats why I ask.

 

[KevinB]

Well I go to church relatively often - and try to be a good Christian - well most of the time.

I cant say I am the greatest follower of organised religions for I see failings in most at least from my perspective of the original intent.

For me, do I think about it on a daily basis - yes. 

 

[mo-litia]

Hey, just for sh!ts and giggles I sent a link to this post to scott.d@forces.gc.ca

Hope Lt (N) Scott doesn't have a middle initial and it reaches the right person!

Just doing my bit to spread the word about this site - a bastion of commen sense and good military values (Usually!) to someone who sorely needs a good kick in the pants.. ....   ;D

 

[Stefan Moxness]

I think one thing that is being forgotten here is that the military is not a democracy.  If it were, when your CO wanted to give an order you'd have a vote over whether you agree with doing that or not.  In that respect, the Lt. should have taken off his hat.  If this individual felt that attending prayer was not appropriate then he should have asked to be exempted from the ceremony or to stand off to the side while the prayer itself was happening. 

As far as respect goes the taking off of one's hat is simply that a matter of simple respect for those around you.  Perhaps I don't speak for everyone, but if i go to someone's house for dinner and they don't say grace, I don't freak out and get insulted, it's their traditions, their way of doing things then so be it.  Atheists and agnostics here are arguing saying that people should respect their lack of religious belief and not make him take off his hat.  Bearing that frame of thought in mind, shouldn't those same people show respect for their comrades by taking of their hat.  People have said that saying prayers pisses them off, well what about you not saying prayer, maybe that pisses them off! So don't ramble about respecting someone and then tell them that they should accomodate you and that you needn't accomodate them.  You have joined the Army, there are rules, traditions and rituals to be respected, if you can't stand the heat then get out of the fire, when in Rome do as the Romans (followed by a hundred other quotes stating you respect the traditions and habits of those around you). 

This is unfortunately a big gigantic circle, well if i respect him then he should respect me, so basically we wind up with 1) everyone doing prayers, or 2) no one doing prayer.  Either way not everyone is going to be pleased.  You can't please all the people all the time, it's impossible.  With that in mind, in an organization like the military where discipline, chain of command and tradition are the central players, does this ONE person really have any solid ground to stand on while still being able to truthfully say that he is a soldier?

 

[buzgo]

I think one thing that is being forgotten here is that the military is not a democracy.   If it were, when your CO wanted to give an order you'd have a vote over whether you agree with doing that or not.   In that respect, the Lt. should have taken off his hat.   If this individual felt that attending prayer was not appropriate then he should have asked to be exempted from the ceremony or to stand off to the side while the prayer itself was happening.  

From bossi's original post (quoted from the article):

"Lt. (N) Scott anticipated having a problem when he would be required to remove his cap during prayer. He told his superior officer more than a month before the parade but was ordered to attend and remove his headgear when ordered."

I agree that the military is not a democracy, yet I still think that consideration has to be given to Lt (N) Scott in this situation - he raised the issue with his supervisor and was shot down. Who knows why it became an issue, we'll never know. I don't think that this has started us 'sliding down the slippery slope', that started long before this.

 

[Stefan Moxness]

I won't disagree with that, I must've missed that part wher he had brought it up prior. That is definitely ignorant Lt. Scott, but I stand by the fact that, being at the ceremony, him not removing his headdress was disrespectful.  Maybe he was trying to make a point, but I think he could've gone about it another way.  It runs in a similar vein (and I'll probably get reamed for saying this) as the flags being dropped in Newfoundland, to me that was very disrespectful.  They could've gone about it another way without doing something insulting to the rest of the people around them (in Lt. Scott's case his comrades in arms, and for NFld the rest of the country).  My two cents, feel free to rant and argue away against me, it makes for interesting discussion, just please let's keep this forum respectful religious arguments seems to bring flames to everyone's tongues, no need for insulting and irrespectful behaviour.

Cheers and be safe

 

[LowRider]

For me, do I think about it on a daily basis - yes. 

Same here KevinB,i really don't see how people can go through life without thinking about it.

 

[sigpig]

Same here KevinB,i really don't see how people can go through life without thinking about it.

It's quite easy to go through life without thinking about that which doesn't exist and the superstitions that support it. I stopped thinking about Santa Claus and Mother Goose a long time ago.

On the other hand it's hard not to think about those religious types who feel the need to mock others who don't share their beliefs and spew forth all kinds of hate and loathing. Note the comments ridiculing Wiccans and Rastafarians on this thread alone. Apparently their man-made superstitions and beliefs don't coincide with yours so it is ok to put them down. And I won't even mention some of the comments made towards homosexuals. Nothing like religion for spreading the love...

 

[LowRider]

On the other hand it's hard not to think about those religious types who feel the need to mock others who don't share their beliefs and spew forth all kinds of hate and loathing.

Just who exactly feels the need to MOCK others and spew hate and loathing?

 

[sigpig]

Just who exactly feels the need to MOCK others and spew hate and loathing?

If you are accusing me of mocking those who put down others beliefs because they are different than their own, and put down homosexuals because their superstitions tell them to, then I am guilty as charged.

 

[Scott]

It's quite easy to go through life without thinking about that which doesn't exist and the superstitions that support it. I stopped thinking about Santa Claus and Mother Goose a long time ago.

We know very well your points of view sigpig. I am seeing some of your comments as borderline trolling, please ease up. As I said, I think we are all well aware where your beliefs, or lack thereof, lie.

 

[48Highlander]

It's quite easy to go through life without thinking about that which doesn't exist and the superstitions that support it. I stopped thinking about Santa Claus and Mother Goose a long time ago.

And you dare talk about "religious types" putting down others for their beleifs?  What the hell is wrong with you?You just insulted every religion in existance!  Don't you think that's a wee bit hypocritical?

I'd also love to see you explain how my comment was insulting to rastafarians.  And FYI AGAIN I'm not f***ing religious!

 

[muskrat89]

On the other hand it's hard not to think about those religious types who feel the need to mock others who don't share their beliefs and spew forth all kinds of hate and loathing. Note the comments ridiculing Wiccans and Rastafarians on this thread alone. Apparently their man-made superstitions and beliefs don't coincide with yours so it is ok to put them down. And I won't even mention some of the comments made towards homosexuals. Nothing like religion for spreading the love...

*sigh*

I made that post tongue in cheek, yes -  not to ridicule Wiccans, but to demonstrate that the CF is supposed to be a functioning, combat-oriented entity. They could not possibly accomodate every imaginable combination, or level, or denomination, or lack thereof -  without sacrificing operational capability. Somewhere, in the midst of all this, there is work that needs to be done....

 

[LowRider]

I'd also love to see you explain how my comment was insulting to rastafarians.  And FYI AGAIN I'm not f***ing religious!

Insulting?I thought it was funny.

 

[McG]

It's quite easy to go through life without thinking about that which doesn't exist and the superstitions that support it. I stopped thinking about Santa Claus and Mother Goose a long time ago.

While your analogy may be true (that atheists see religious beliefs to be as real as fictitious characters), you have demonstrated a considerable lack of tactfulness in linking religious beliefs to fables that children believe in.   Essentially, you have told everyone on this site with any religious belief that they are not only wrong but childishly foolish.  Your choice of the word "superstition" is also insulting to anyone with any religious belief.

In the future (and this advise goes to anyone that wants to talk religion), don't argue religion as fact.   In you mind it may be fact that there is a god, or in your mind it may be fact that there is no god.   That debate does not belong on this site.   To give this thread some arcs, the debate should not stray from the following:

• Does prayer in military functions detract from ones right to not believe?
• Does prayer in military functions detract from ones right to believe something different?
• Can the military expect everyone to participate in ceremonies that includes any religious observations?
• If a soldier was denied the option not to participate, is removing headdress a sign of accepting the beliefs?
• Is religion a military tradition?
• What is gained/lost from religious observations in military functions?
• Does respecting one belief require another to be suppressed, or can everyone be accommodated?

the CF is supposed to be a functioning, combat-oriented entity. They could not possibly accomodate every imaginable combination, or level, or denomination, or lack thereof - without sacrificing operational capability.

If not everyone can be accommodated, then perhaps it is time for the military to stop accommodating any beliefs.

 

[sdimock]

No
No
Yes
No
Yes
Perspective
Everyone can be accommodated if tolerance and respect are shown toward everyone

My 2 cents