Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[00334]

Last I knew the U.S was founded on separation of "Church and State".  That religion no matter what the denominations, is forbidden in the government.  The government does not support religious churches, schools and even to the point of law suits to prohibit religious displays on government/state property during the holiday season.

I believe one should practice their own set of beliefs without pressing them on others.

emma

You should read up before you run your mouth.  Firstly, seperation of church and state referred to government leaving the church alone.  Secondly, the government of Ontario runs a Catholic school board.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Alright, enough of this. People can't even keep the countries and governments right. This has gone so far off track it's not even funny.

Locked.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[tonykeene]

I too, have had a hesitancy to stay out of this thread although I have discussed it with my peers as it is of an interest to me. 

My grandfather was taken a POW in 1941 off the coast of Malaysia after his ship was attacked and sunk by the Japanese and remained a POW until his camp was liberated in 1945.  He wasn't an overtly religious man, but had a CofS designation on his dog tags.  During his incarceration, he and a select few POWs would do a rotating escape to contact sympathetic islanders who in turn, passed on the INTEL to the allies.  They would intentionally be recaptured to continue gathering enemy INTEL throughout their incarceration. 

Each time they escaped, they knew that some of their peers would bear the brunt of their escape and possibly be executed.  Yet, they continued to carry out their duty.  Everytime my Grandfather and his peers were recaptured, he would spend 30-60 days in the sweat box.  Everyday the men on the outside of the box would gather and recite the 23rd Psalm to the inmates or sing the hymns of their Branches.  They were allowed to do that as their Japanese guards did not try to stop the ministering of faith to the inmates.  My grandfather said that he when he felt he could not go on any longer, that hearing the weakened voices of his peers in prayer afforded him the faith that he would survive and if he were to die because of the beatings, the hunger, the illnesses that wracked his body, he knew that it was a just death because he did not break faith with his peers or the men and women who had sacrificed themselves before him. 

In the years after his liberation and his return to civvy life, each August he would gather at the Cenotaph with the other survivors of the camps to mark V-J day.  He started taking me when I was 5.  The men would repeat the 23rd Psalm as if they were speaking it to the men who didn't return with them.  They would sing the hymns of the Branches and vow to Remember Them.  I asked my grandfather in a time period of my life when I wasn't sure about there being a God, or why anyone would ever want to be religious, why he always prayed at these acts of remembrances.  That's when he told me about the breaking of faith with the men and women who had died.  He said that until someone else could find another way to express it so that it means and has the same intent, prayer was the only way to keep that faith with the dead.  He said that whatever the alternative would be it would have to encompass the Divine Rights of the Queen to whom all Commonwealth servicemen swore to serve, that it would have to include ways to morally bind the person to whatever oath or affirmation they undertook when they enlisted as he truly believed that the enrollment of a person in the military meant that they were entering into an agreement to not only serve their Queen and Country but also to carry on from those who gave up their lives while in that service.  John McCrae understood that and so has every military leader that has asked of their troops, sailors and airmen to lay down their lives.  Until such a time that all of that can be expressed and be understood to mean the same thing the apparent mechanism of ceremony, prayer and respect is just going to have to suffice. 

Now, fast forward to 1982.  I'm still not overtly religious but I attend church services and I have baptised my child.  On an early summer day, a notification party is standing at my door telling me that my husband has been killed.  For all the people that hovered around me for the days and weeks afterwards, the only persons who truly understood the depths of my grief were my Grandparents and the Padre.  It was the padre that guided me through the moments where I questioned the fairness of my husband's death.  The moment of my comfort came when I reconciled the reasons for his duty and his sacrifice.  I have and continue to keep faith with him and those who died for me.  I can only express that faith in the acts of remembrance, prayer and when words are not appropriate, the doffing of my hat and bowing of my head.  I have not found any other way to express that and affords me to being able keep that faith. 

I respect people's faiths and their religious dogma, their spirituality and their non beliefs.  We have had a long line of just wars and conflicts that have afforded us those rights to practice or not to practice whatever faith or belief one requires to find their way through life.  What I believe, those accumulative conflicts and wars did not grant us is the right to dictate to each other that one belief has to be excluded/included at the whim of a select few.  We have had a long battle to attain democracy, and I say, let the democratic mechanisms operate in their fullest while at the same time if those democratic mechanisms suggest that religion is passe in the military, then let it also create ways and means to express and keep the faith with those that gave us that democracy.   

And to those who perhaps feel that it is too much an imposition to doff a hat, bow a head or simply shut up for a few moments to allow others to carry out their acts of remembrances and acts of faith, then I feel immensely sorry for you that you fail to "get" what the program is truly about.  For those who do find their way to participate even though their own belief systems say otherwise, then to them I say, thank you. 

My sincere comndolences and sympathies are with you.  A chaplain helped me whem my father died, as I was away at Alert at the time.  They are truly magnificent people.

Let me, a convinced Atheist, offer you some thoughts.

When people around you engage, as Canadians are wont to do, in voluntary worship and prayer, it is only natural and right for you to remove your headdress, and so I always do.  However, a military parade is not a voluntary worship service, it is a command performance.  NO ONE on that parade has any choice, except the commanding officer who made it happen.  Let's not confuse religion here with the act of honouring and remembering fallen comrades.  Those with no religion remember and honour them too.
However, the military never lets any of us have the microphone to impose our ideas on 350 people.  We get a dose of someone else's beliefs, with no way to manifest our own.  Can you tell the faithful from the non-believers by looking at the ranks?
Last summer I saw two Canadian soldiers put in a position where, in order to exercise their Charter Freedom of Consicence and Religion, they had to step off parade, in front of everyone, and walk from the left flank to the right, away from their fellow soldiers, their Regiment and their Colours.
They were not unwilling to honour the fallen or engage in an Act of Remembrance, they just didn't feel they should pray on command with their CO.  and neither do I.  Maybe the next time that happens, the soldier will march straight into a lawyer's office.
Canadian Law, DND/CF regulations and common respect and decency say these things should not be happening.  But they do.  The CF is the only government agency in the country where your boss can order you to join him in religious ritual, and if you refuse he can charge you, try you, convict you and punish you.
Just try to imagine what would happen if a senior supervisor in say, Revenue Canada, decided that he had a morale problem in his office and, as a team-building exercise, he would set up an altar in the parking lot and order his entire staff out to hear prayers and receive blessings from a government-employed priest.  This is EXACTLY what the CO of the unit did.  It was not Remembrance Day, Battle of the Atlantic Sunday or anyone's funeral.  He did it in order to foster unit cohesion.  In other words, he didn't want any goddam atheists in his unit, so he showed them the door.  Literally.
If we can hold a parade and ask people to leave on the basis of their Position of Conscience and Religion, then we should be able to also do it on the basis of race or gender.  (Remember the good old days when we were all white and all male?)
People who keep bringing up stories of our veterans at Dieppe and elsewhere must understand that there were many men in those units, who had nothing but disdain for religion, and they fought bravely and they died too.  Remembering the fallen is only a religious act if you believe it to be so.  For the rest of us it is a commemorative act, and Canadian Law, and all DND/CF regs on inclusion and accommodation say it is so.
There is more to religious inclusion than just setting up a menora or having rugs on the floor.

Remember, atheists in Canada now number six million, more than the entire membership of the United and Anglican churches combined.  We are aminstream, not a radical fringe.  We don't want to change things to suit us, we want to find ways for all of us to join together.  There has to be a way, if we can only stop griping at one another.  We honour and commemorate your husband too.  He was our comrade as much as he was anyone else's.  All we ask is to be included.
 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I'm an athiest also, only I would wager one who's a whole lot classier than you or those other two fellows.....

I'll stand there in support of anyone's beliefs. I wanted to do the sweat lodge thing two Saturdays ago but the logistics didn't work out...............but I still learned a whole lot whilst checking out the practices so that I wouldn't be "out of step", so to speak.

What does a little understanding hurt?

 

[deedster]

I am not an atheist, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic.  My religion is important to me, but I believe understanding, compassion and tolerance for other peoples' beliefs (and non-beliefs) would go a long way.  We're not quite there yet, but I hope (and pray) that in a lot of instances we may be moving in the right direction.

edited for a typo

 

[the 48th regulator]

Remember, atheists in Canada now number six million, more than the entire membership of the United and Anglican churches combined.  We are aminstream, not a radical fringe.  We don't want to change things to suit us, we want to find ways for all of us to join together.  There has to be a way, if we can only stop griping at one another.  We honour and commemorate your husband too.  He was our comrade as much as he was anyone else's.  All we ask is to be included.
 

Really,

Please post where you have garnished your statistics.

According to the national Canadian Census, modified in 2005, Non Religious affiliations totalled less than 5 Million.  That is a group that includes Atheists, not made up totaly by Atheists.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo30a.htm

If you are going to make a statement, and try to use stats to solidify your argument, please use actual facts.  You are just using "lies" to act as the scaremonger by forcing us into believing your personal biases.

dileas

tess

 

[niceasdrhuxtable]

Does "No religious affiliation" include agnostics? I can't seem to find a definition on the website

 

[stealthylizard]

Where is the harm in having to listen to a religious speech for a few minutes?  Blank it out in your mind, and think of something else.  I hated mandatory church parades when I was in cadets, and the only way I could get out those was with parental permission.  Did you have something more important to do?  Probably not.  A regiment that prays together, stays together.  We are all exposed to things in life we don't like (sexual harrasment policies, lol).  I am an atheist as well, but I am not offended by religious speech in the military. 

There are no atheists in a foxhole.  I don't know if it's true or not, but I hope I never have to find out.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Does "No religious affiliation" include agnostics? I can't seem to find a definition on the website

I would assume that your assumption is correct.  For the fact that agnostics were not displayed with their own column, and they do fit under "No religious affiliation".

I know some beat up on the reliability of Wikipedia, but they state the following;

Demographic research services normally list agnostics in the same category as atheists and non-religious people, (1) although this can be misleading depending on the number of agnostic theists who identify themselves first as agnostics and second as followers of a particular religion

dileas

tess

 

[tonykeene]

Really,

Please post where you have garnished your statistics.

According to the national Canadian Census, modified in 2005, Non Religious affiliations totalled less than 5 Million.  That is a group that includes Atheists, not made up totaly by Atheists.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo30a.htm

If you are going to make a statement, and try to use stats to solidify your argument, please use actual facts.  You are just using "lies" to act as the scaremonger by forcing us into believing your personal biases.

dileas

tess

OK, here goes.  Statistics Canada census in 1991 showed us at 12 per cent.  By 2001 it showed us at 16 per cent.  In 2006 StatsCan did a "Social Trends in Canada" survey which showed the number had risen to 19 per cent.  On top of that, another 25 per cent, while unwilling to say they had no religious beliefs, stated that religion played no part in their lives and that they did not think about it, or take part in it.  And those numbers are growing.  It will be interesting to see the figures in the 2011 census.
The fastest growing religion in Canada is Islam, but it is still a very small part of the overall demographic.
The two most secular (least religious) countries in the develioped world (ie what we usually refer to as he West) are The Netherlands and Canada, which is interesting considering the other links we have with the Dutch.

Please remember though that in Canada, we do not decide religious matters by majority vote.  It is a Human Rights issue, and the Charter protects individuals, not groups.  People of faith are fully free to pray and conduct their offices, while those who are not religious are fully free not to.  Every individual has that freedom, not the groups.
That includes members of the CF.  Remember, no one goes up to the microphone and, with command authority, makes a statement on our behalf.  One point of view is favoured.  All we ask is that we be acknowledged.  We are all fully prepared, as far as I know, to show respect to others.  I would never dream of giving offence to any person of faith.
Again, I don't want special treatment, I just want to be included.  If we can modify our rituals and ceremonies to accommodate minority faiths, why can't we modify them a little more to include everyone?  It's not hard.




edited to adjust post and quote

 

[Michael OLeary]

tonykeene,

You are offering a running complaint but no actual solution yet. 

Can you assure us, with conclusive evidence that your collective "no religion" group is a cohesive and uniform element that has a "single voice" which would represent all of you (with no dissension) with that command authority you describe?  Or would any such attempts to "include" your perceived singular group of atheists simply invite further complaints from those who choose not to be so grouped.

What, exactly, do you propose that would conclusively satisfy every person who chooses "no religion" in such surveys?

And, if you successfully sanitized religion from memorial services, what answer would you have for the 81% (?) who seem to be ok with the status quo?  What about their individual rights to practice elements of faith?

 

[armyvern]

Well, I'm an atheist.

While on parade, I feel quite free to let let my mind wander to those I have both personally known who have fallen and all of those who fell in our conflicts past.

I am free to do this ... while the others pray along with the affiliated Padre's leading those prayers from their microphones to my front.

Now, if they were forcing me to RECITE the words of prayer along with those who choose to do so standing at my sides and within the ranks, I would then view it as an intrusion of my rights.

But, they don't. I stand there and remember (usually with tears coursing down my cheeks) in my own way, while the others pray to their Gods. That's compromise.

By stating that those who do pray to their applicable diety shouldn't be allowed to do so while formed up and in my athiest presence, you are making MY rights more important than theirs. Whether I'm the minority OR the majority really has NO bearing whatsoever as intollerance is a two way street. I am an athiest -- I am NOT intollerant. Them praying ... is not hurting me in any way, shape or form whatsoever. TonyKeene -- you certainly do not speak for me.

 

[Rodahn]

Well, I'm an atheist.

While on parade, I feel quite free to let let my mind wander to those I have both personally known who have fallen and all of those who fell in our conflicts past.

I am free to do this ... while the others pray along with the affiliated Padre's leading those prayers from their microphones to my front.

Now, if they were forcing me to RECITE the words of prayer along with those who choose to do so standing at my sides and within the ranks, I would then view it as an intrusion of my rights.

But, they don't. I stand there and remember (usually with tears coursing down my cheeks) in my own way, while the others pray to their Gods. That's compromise.

By stating that those who do pray to their applicable diety shouldn't be allowed to do so while formed up and in my athiest presence, you are making MY rights more important than theirs. Whether I'm the minority OR the majority really has NO bearing whatsoever as intollerance is a two way street. I am an athiest -- I am NOT intollerant. Them praying ... is not hurting me in any way, shape or form whatsoever. TonyKeene -- you certainly do not speak for me.

Well said...

 

[the 48th regulator]

The two most secular (least religious) countries in the develioped world (ie what we usually refer to as he West) are The Netherlands and Canada, which is interesting considering the other links we have with the Dutch.

Not according to this table.


http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/companion/rel/tables/canada/cdamajor.cfm


Can you please provide links and sources to your “Facts”?

I think Both Michael and Vern, have nailed my sentiments, even though they are Godless heathens...

dileas

tess

 

[Reccesoldier]

This struck me...

It was not Remembrance Day, Battle of the Atlantic Sunday or anyone's funeral.  He did it in order to foster unit cohesion.

Now I do not know if this happened, but at this point I have no reason to believe that it didn't.  So for all of you jumping down this posters throat what say you work on the premise that he is telling the truth.

Now, taking his post as truth, take the mainstream and majority attitude and actions of this Christian CO and replace them with the actions and ideals of a Muslim CO who took a Friday to demand of every single member of the unit joined him for daily prayers... because he wanted them to.

Or how about an atheist CO who demanded that no-one go to church or any sort of worship because he wanted to foster morale.

Don't forget...

It was not Remembrance Day, Battle of the Atlantic Sunday or anyone's funeral.  He did it in order to foster unit cohesion.

Wrong is wrong ladies and gentlemen, regardless of if that wrong is done in your favor, or in accordance with something you believe in or have no problem with.

This CO was not perpetuating a military tradition, there was no military purpose, however tenuous, just his want.

It's sickening.  Not because the man believes or even because he thinks he has the power to demand everyone join him (though that is despicable as well) but because so many people would swallow it and accept this petit socialism because "it doesn't hurt me", "I go to my happy place", "I let my mind wander".

What happens when this man (the CO) begins to make comments like "Cpl Bloggins... I didn't see you at church on Sunday..."  What happens when those that do go to church begin to talk about those that don't...  What happens when this becomes a weekly occurrence?

I think Heinlein was wrong when he said "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."  the greater tyranny would be to force a man to participate in worship for the same exact reason.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Then Tonykeene must present using true facts, not made up ones to prove a point.

Period.

He has proven facts, then present them.  Until then I feel he is making up statistics to boost his beleifs, and trying to enforce them falsely on mine.

dileas

tess

 

[Reccesoldier]

Then he must present using true facts, not made up ones to prove a point.

Period.

He has them, then present them.  Until then I feel he is making up statistics to boost his beleifs, and trying to enforce them falsely on mine.

dileas

tess

Fair enough,  but I didn't mention the statistics, only the story as it was given.  The statistics are absolutely meaningless, the actions of this CO are not.  I wouldn't care if it was a diatribe against Druids, with only one Druid in attendance, the fact remains that it is a gross abuse of the CO's power and influence.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Fair enough,  but I didn't mention the statistics, only the story as it was given.  The statistics are absolutely meaningless, the actions of this CO are not.  I wouldn't care if it was a diatribe against Druids, with only one Druid in attendance, the fact remains that it is a gross abuse of the CO's power and influence.

Then he should not use Statistics in his post, to prove a point, especially ones that he has come up with himself.

That is my point.  He wants to argue the situation, then use his own opinion, and beliefs, do not lead others in beleiving that things are another way by presenting false information to boost his argument.

It is wrong, and immoral, and those actions are far worst than that of the CO's.

That is what I am trying to point out, wouldn't you agree?

dileas

tess

 

[armyvern]

This struck me...
Now I do not know if this happened, but at this point I have no reason to believe that it didn't.  So for all of you jumping down this posters throat what say you work on the premise that he is telling the truth.

Now, taking his post as truth, take the mainstream and majority attitude and actions of this Christian CO and replace them with the actions and ideals of a Muslim CO who took a Friday to demand of every single member of the unit joined him for daily prayers... because he wanted them to.

Or how about an atheist CO who demanded that no-one go to church or any sort of worship because he wanted to foster morale.

Don't forget...
Wrong is wrong ladies and gentlemen, regardless of if that wrong is done in your favor, or in accordance with something you believe in or have no problem with.

This CO was not perpetuating a military tradition, there was no military purpose, however tenuous, just his want.

It's sickening.  Not because the man believes or even because he thinks he has the power to demand everyone join him (though that is despicable as well) but because so many people would swallow it and accept this petit socialism because "it doesn't hurt me", "I go to my happy place", "I let my mind wander".
What happens when this man (the CO) begins to make comments like "Cpl Bloggins... I didn't see you at church on Sunday..."  What happens when those that do go to church begin to talk about those that don't...  What happens when this becomes a weekly occurrence?

I think Heinlein was wrong when he said "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."  the greater tyranny would be to force a man to participate in worship for the same exact reason.

Excuse me?  Go to my happy place? 

Did the CO in question issue a "call to prayer?" Or did he have a Parade which was not on Nov 11th, battle of the Atlantic or some other "visibly recognized date?" I have been on NUMEROUS parades which were held on non-battle-important dates.

Those parades then, obviously, were NOT parades conducted in REMEMBERANCE of any fallen ... just like in Tony Keene's post. BUT, they were Parades and like it or not, drill & parading (especially in DEU 1A) is essential to Unit cohesion. Many of those parades have Padres present at them for prayer, such as Change of Command Parades, such as my recent Grad Parade.

And, just because those parades were held on a date that is not battle-visibly-recognized nor held as a "Commerative" event ... does NOT equte into --- had a parade with a prayer simply to foster Unit cohesion and discriminate against us athiests.

Mr Keene,

In your scenario noted below, what was the occasion for the Parade? Did he order those two pers to pray? Did he as Reccesoldier says "force them to participate in worship" or ebven ask them too? Or did he order any pers NOT praying to leave his Parade Square? I'm quite interested in hearing the answer to that. Sadly, I have a feeling the answer is NO although your post certainly tends to lead one in thinking that ... else the media and CBC would have been all over it.

I suspect rather, that your idea is that prayer should be disallowed at ANY parade not held for the sole purpose of remembering or commerating a recognized battle; and, that by including a prayer in a rather mundane parade held for whatever reason (ie fostering Unit cohesion) ... someone is stepping on your rights. That's bullshit, and sorry reccesoldier, but it still does no harm to me personaly.

Isn't this f'n ironic. An Athiest arguing for others to retain their right to pray, and for the CF to continue in traditions it's had for over a century such as being able to hold parades to foster Unit cohesion along with those held to remember and commemorate.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

As the one who is usually up front leading the prayers I try to be as inclusive as possible. If it is a specific prayer for a change of command or a grad I try to include specific references to the group gathered and the intention that we are praying or thinking about....e.g. safe journey to new postings or safe return for troops etc. I usually start the prayer by saying that if it is not your tradition or belief to offer prayers please use this time to reflect or think about those who are ...... graduating, changing command, departing on deployment etc. I do not pray in the name of a specific diety i.e Jesus or Yahweh or fill in the blank. (It is actually a policy of the CF and the Chaplaincy that if you are the sole leader of public prayer that you must be as inclusive as possible for all. If you represent your particular religion with other reps of other traditions present then it is appropriate to offer prayers in your particular tradition. 

No one is forced to pray....everyone is asked to be polite and disciplined and respect the wishes of those who do wish to pray. Prayer for people of Faith is something that is important at important events. If it's not important for you then do some thinking about whatever might be important to you. Reflection on the virtues of service for others, sacrifice for country and duty to a higher cause is not the sole domain of People of Faith and hopefully they are things that all of us who don the uniform are capable of doing.

I actually have had atheist COs who wanted to delete public prayer and sometimes they just did it even over my objections....that is their right but they are denying their troops of something they are entitled to have. Again I think if the very short time (well I'm never long winded personally  ) required to pause for prayer and reflection is too  much for some folks then they probably harbour hostility towards religion rather than the position they advocate ...what they really want is "freedom from religion rather than freedom of religion." Freedom from religion means that nobody gets to practice....freedom of religion means we all get to worship as we choose.

http://www.dnd.ca/chapgen/engraph/voluntary_worship_e.asp?cat=7

"The Canadian Forces firmly believe in the freedom of faith.

The Chaplain General encourages Canadian Forces chaplains, who lead worship or prayer during public services and ceremonies where members of many religious groups may be attending, to be sensitive in their use of sacred phrases. Examples of these public services would include, for instance, annual Remembrance Day services, the interment of the Unknown Soldier in May 2000 or the consecration of the National Military Cemetery in June 2001. The goal is simply to ensure that all believers, of all faith groups feel included in public prayer t hat is led by Canadian Forces chaplains.

The Chaplain General's guidelines are not meant to ban people from expressing their faith. It does not change the nature of voluntary Christian religious worship for Canadian Forces members in chapel, in the field or onboard ship. Rather, it is an inclusive measure that reflects the multicultural and multi-faith nature of the Canadian Forces and Canadian society as a whole.

The text of the guidelines, which was sent by the Chaplain General, Commodore (the Venerable) Timothy Maindonald, to all Canadian Forces chaplains in July 2001, is as follows:

"Within the context of voluntary worship, either within a chapel or a field service or on board ship, chaplains are free to lead Christian worship according to their denomination tradition within the established practice of Canadian Forces Roman Catholic or Protestant Chapels. Likewise, in the context of ecumenical or interfaith worship where a number of religious leaders are participating, chaplains may conduct themselves in accordance with their denominational tradition." "Within the context of a public ceremony the chaplain is the sole representative of all faith groups. Where various faith groups and a wide range of beliefs are likely to exist, normally prayers should be inclusive in nature respecting the wide range of faith groups and believers who may be present. The religious celebrant is encouraged to be sensitive in the use of specific sacred faith formulas to allow for greater inclusivity."