Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[Michael OLeary]

Fair enough,  but I didn't mention the statistics, only the story as it was given.  The statistics are absolutely meaningless, the actions of this CO are not.  I wouldn't care if it was a diatribe against Druids, with only one Druid in attendance, the fact remains that it is a gross abuse of the CO's power and influence.

Yes, the story as it was given - without further context and without any rebuttal from those he accuses of trampling on his personal freedoms.  One side of a story does not necessarily provide a clear picture when such outspoken bias is shown as the principal intent of the message being offered.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Mr Keene,

In your scenario noted below, what was the occasion for the Parade? Did he order those two pers to pray? Did he as Reccesoldier says "force them to participate in worship" or ebven ask them too? Or did he order any pers NOT praying to leave his Parade Square? I'm quite interested in hearing the answer to that. Sadly, I have a feeling the answer is NO although your post certainly tends to lead one in thinking that ... else the media and CBC would have been all over it.

I'd like to know the answer to this as well, but Vern, but in the event (as slight as it may be) that this was indeed a misguided call to prayer by the CO as Mr. Keene suggests, and even if the CO did not force these two individuals to participate, the act of summoning the entire regiment and then singling out those who had the parts to refuse to play along is in and of itself discriminatory and goes against everything the CF has been teaching each and every one of us since the early 90's.

Having said that if this was a full blown parade as some have suggested and this service was a part of that parade there is nothing to complain about.  As the Padre has said, CF parades with ceremonies of this sort are very non-denominational, banal even.

I have been ordered to go to church, for no reason other than the fact that the big green machine though it was the right thing to do. I had just joined and was in Cornwallis, I was ordered to go, I went.  It didn't hurt me but I felt I was trespassing on the beliefs of others.  I did not like the feeling and today, I would not participate in such a blatant disrespect of my rights.

 

[Roy Harding]

IN HOC SIGNO:

I'm an atheist - you're free to pray for my salvation at will (won't bother me in the least) - and what you describe is EXACTLY what I remember.  I don't recall being upset when the Padre said a few words and offered a prayer on parade, nor did I ever feel that my rights as an atheist were being infringed when he/she did so.

I was also a huge supporter of Padres throughout my career - what their individual faith was didn't make a difference to me, and it didn't seem to make a difference to them, either - I accompanied (on R&R - nothing official) Padres on tours of cathedrals, synagogues, Hindu temples, Mosques - I always found them (the Padres) extremely knowledgeable regarding the structures we were in, the customs involved in being there (removal of shoes, removal or donning of headdress, etc) and completely non-judgmental regarding the religions those structures were erected to the glory of.

To get back to topic - only once did I feel "put upon" as an atheist - when I was "required" to attend a church parade in the '70s.  This involved a full church service, at which I felt extremely uncomfortable.  We were, of course, given a choice - we could attend church parade, or spend the time doing menial labour - akin to what those guys on "extras" were required to do.  Some choice.  In my own experience, however, that sort of thing hasn't gone on for quite some time.

All this to say - I don't find the inclusion of ecumenical and thoughtful religious practices an infringement on anyone's (including mine) rights.  I think it's only polite to understand that different folks "reflect" in different ways - and it's the mark of a professional, not to mention classy, to participate in the spirit of the thing, without worrying about the individual beliefs of the one leading it.

As mentioned by someone earlier (Vern, I think) - it's kinda' neat that a bunch of us atheists (or "Godless heathens", if you prefer, Tess) have stood up in defense of this particular practice.

 

[armyvern]

Reccesoldier,

I too know a fellow Athiest who left a Parade (not a Nov 11th or Battle of the Atlantic etc -- just a 'normal, everyday, run of the mill parade) because the CO had a Padre present and a prayer was included on the op order.

Now, talking to that fellow Athiest later, he certainly gave the impression that he was 'forced' to leave that parade and not participate in it because it was a 'gross abuse' of his right to remain prayer-free (ie to remain free from religion). He probably felt that he was singled out too (and his leaving the parade square certainly DID single him out). But, the COs INTENT certainly was NOT to force him to "pray or leave", nor was it the COs intent to have him walk off the parade square, of that I can assure you.

This person did that all on their own -- but certainly blamed the CO for "forcing" him into it. I told him flat-out, that I thought he was wrong. At no time did the CO instruct us to "pray" or to "bow our heads" and pretend we were praying with them.

For my fellow Athiests out there who believe that prayer should occur ONLY on parades which occur to commemorate battles or on Nov 11th (and that any other type of Parade should NOT include a prayer), I offer up my outlook as follows:

"We will remember them." I take that literally as "Never forget."

So, if a CO or Comd (et al) decides that XXXXX parade will include a prayer offered up by the Padre either for the fallen or to pray for the safety of those currently serving on this Nations front line ... I have ZERO problems with that. If those that pray wish to remember our fallen with a prayer, that is quite acceptable to me at ANY time. That is their choice ... or are they only allowed to remember the fallen with prayer or pray for the safe return of their fellow comrades in arms on specified dates during specified parades?

So, while they pray, I'm quite content to "let my mind wander" off to last time I saw Mike ... snuggled up on the couch with him watching a video before he deployed to Somalia where he was killed ... because that is how I remember. I have no problem with that.

 

[Michael OLeary]

There's a small point I don't understand.  If one is a determined atheist, then wouldn't you assume that prayer or any religious content (on a parade or elsewhere) is just meaningless noise?  How exactly are they being "forced to worship" as seems to be the case with these high-visibility detractors if they remain on parade?  How, exactly, are they presuming that being in the presence of someone else's prayers, which supposedly mean nothing to them, will suddenly undermine their personal lack of faith?  Christians don't seen to have such fears when a Muslim or Jewish religious leader speaks.  Neither do the Muslims.  Neither do the Jews.  Are we to assume that atheism is such a fragile concept that it can be undermined or broken by simply hearing a prayer, a prayer which the atheist previously declares has no personal meaning to them.

Are we really talking about 'human rights' here, or are we really talking about certain atheists' lack of conviction to the extent that they fear being in the presence of prayer?

Or is it just an excuse to be defiant in the face of authority?

 

[Roy Harding]

There's a small point I don't understand.  If one is a determined atheist, then wouldn't you assume that prayer or any religious content (on a parade or elsewhere) is just meaningless noise? 

Basically correct, although (speaking for myself only) not necessarily "meaningless" in content.

How exactly are they being "forced to worship" as seems to be the case with these high-visibility detractors if they remain on parade?  How, exactly, are they presuming that being in the presence of someone else's prayers, which supposedly mean nothing to them, will suddenly undermine their personal lack of faith?  Christians don't seen to have such fears when a Muslim or Jewish religious leader speaks.  Neither do the Muslims.  Neither do the Jews.  Are we to assume that atheism is such a fragile concept that it can be undermined or broken by simply hearing a prayer, a prayer which the atheist previously declares has no personal meaning to them.

Are we really talking about 'human rights' here, or are we really talking about certain atheists' lack of conviction to the extent that they fear being in the presence of prayer?

Or is it just an excuse to be defiant in the face of authority?

Bingo.

 

[armyvern]

I'd agree with you Roy,

I recognize prayer's intent and value to others who choose that. If that's what brings them comfort & solace -- it's all good.

I'm not about to deny them that comfort & solace just because I happen to "be there" on parade with them. I understand that it's intent is not to offend me.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Basically correct, although (speaking for myself only) not necessarily "meaningless" in content.

To clarify, take "meaningless" in the context of lacking personal emotional relevance, not in that it should be perceived as white noise or static.

 

[Roy Harding]

To clarify, take "meaningless" in the context of lacking personal emotional relevance, not in that it should be perceived as white noise or static.

I wasn't attempting to split hairs (although I seem to have done a good job of it).

Context noted - and agreed with.

 

[Reccesoldier]

This will be my last post on this topic as I fear that my point will be missed regardless of the logic behind it.

To me this is just as much a question of leadership as it is one of discrimination.

As I said earlier, taking Mr Keen at his word and working on the assumption that the intent and reason behind the parade was a call to prayer let me ask you this...

If a leader who had an all male section except one decided that he was going to hold the section O Group in a strip joint would you call that sound leadership? 

Would it facilitate unit cohesion if that leader, upon gathering his troop at the door to the strip joint said that the single female didn't have to go in.

Would that female feel included, would she bond with her fellow soldiers or would she feel isolated, discriminated against and singled out?

I know that this is a ridiculous analogy, but, if Keen's story is true it isn't much more ridiculous than the actual event.

Someone I work with, an officer, has told me that there is a unit in Petawawa in which the evangelical ideals of the senior leadership have become the standard, and there is, in his opinion, definite pressure to participate in, accept, and be seen to accept that missionary attitude and ideal.

Discrimination of this sort is pervasive and it is damaging to units and individuals.  Ever had a boss who thinks that the best soldiers are hockey players, or biatheletes or CSIM what-have-you or just the jumpers or just the ones that join him/her in the smoking area and laugh at their jokes?

Being a leader means leading them all, not just the ones that share ideological values with you.  L Gen Natynczyk (VCDS) is a deeply religious man, he was my CO...  I had no idea, nor did most of the rest of the Regiment because he was/is enough of a leader to keep his spirituality to himself, not to hide it, but to not make others uncomfortable because of it.

If this parade went down as described then that CO should not only be fired, but should find himself charged with harassment and in front of the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

 

[Michael OLeary]

If this parade went down as described then that CO should not only be fired, but should find himself charged with harassment and in front of the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

"IF"......

It's funny that we have no problem dismantling news stories (and those who report them) that start with an uncorroborated fact and spin a fantastical tale of "what if".  How is this different?

 

[armyvern]

Reccesoldier,

IF the CO had a parade specificly to have a prayer AND if the CO ordered anyone to leave his parade square because they would NOT pray ... then I'll agree with you.

I DO NOT believe that's the case though. I know more than a few fellow Athiests who subscribe to the belief that ANY prayers on ANY Parades is an outright expression by the CO to single them out and discriminate against them.

I also believe that we will find, when tonykeene chooses to answer the questions put to him (link to the post with my specific questions is below), that the CO did not issue any type of "Call to Prayer", nor did that CO tell anyone to leave that parade because they did not participate in the prayer when it came up on the schedule.

I'm willing to bet money on it -- I'm that sure.

It didn't happen that way -- I'm 99.99999% posotive of it.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25815/post-647241.html#msg647241

 

[the 48th regulator]

And, if you successfully sanitized religion from memorial services, what answer would you have for the 81% (?) who seem to be ok with the status quo?  What about their individual rights to practice elements of faith?

I actually have had atheist COs who wanted to delete public prayer and sometimes they just did it even over my objections....that is their right but they are denying their troops of something they are entitled to have. Again I think if the very short time (well I'm never long winded personally  ) required to pause for prayer and reflection is too  much for some folks then they probably harbour hostility towards religion rather than the position they advocate ...what they really want is "freedom from religion rather than freedom of religion." Freedom from religion means that nobody gets to practice....freedom of religion means we all get to worship as we choose.

Fair enough,  but I didn't mention the statistics, only the story as it was given.  The statistics are absolutely meaningless, the actions of this CO are not.  I wouldn't care if it was a diatribe against Druids, with only one Druid in attendance, the fact remains that it is a gross abuse of the CO's power and influence.

The above three statements exemplify what I am pointing out.  When someone creates a myth that the majority do not want religion, and are challenged on their facts, then Statistics are meaningless.

If the CF is a reflection of Canadian society, the why should 82% of the parade have to suffer to appease the 16% that do not want to have religion part of a parade.

That flies totally in the face of your own argument.  You would want the majority to bow down to a few??

So where is the tolerance?  Would you then request that the locals in Afghanistan were told by the interpreters that their call to prayer offends the Atheists within the ranks, and that they should cease immediately, so as not to interfere with your rights to work without religious interference?

I mean, where is the tolerance for my way of soldiering?

dileas

tess

 

[Reccesoldier]

There's a small point I don't understand.  If one is a determined atheist, then wouldn't you assume that prayer or any religious content (on a parade or elsewhere) is just meaningless noise?  How exactly are they being "forced to worship" as seems to be the case with these high-visibility detractors if they remain on parade?  How, exactly, are they presuming that being in the presence of someone else's prayers, which supposedly mean nothing to them, will suddenly undermine their personal lack of faith?  Christians don't seen to have such fears when a Muslim or Jewish religious leader speaks.  Neither do the Muslims.  Neither do the Jews.  Are we to assume that atheism is such a fragile concept that it can be undermined or broken by simply hearing a prayer, a prayer which the atheist previously declares has no personal meaning to them.

Are we really talking about 'human rights' here, or are we really talking about certain atheists' lack of conviction to the extent that they fear being in the presence of prayer?

Or is it just an excuse to be defiant in the face of authority?

So would the same logic apply if an atheist CO forbade the ceremony?  I mean would he, on any given day, due to his lack of belief, be fully justified in denying religious expression?  Because after all its absence isn't going to hurt anyone.


For me, and speaking specifically about being forced to go to church parade, I felt that I was imposing on the religious. 

But also, being forced into the situation creates the perception of acceptance.  Unless I am truly and fully disrespectful of the beliefs of those that ordered me to be there, it forces me to observe and participate regardless of how useless or ignorant I believe such services to be.

"Now be seated, please stand, bow your heads in prayer..."  All of these actions are calculated in deference to and in acceptance of a superstition which I have been forced to participate in and accept, until such time as I am permitted to act of my own free will again.

This above all, to thy own self be true...
I do not, and will not, bow my head in prayer.  I also refuse to kneel in compliance to a religion or god I firmly deny because I believe in no god and will not show deference to one out of self respect and acknowledgment of my own reason. 

Were I to not stand, kneel, sit or bow in a church at the appointed time, people would see that as a lack of respect.  So, having forced me to be there, the same people who have disrespected my wish not to be a part of their superstition, and have discounted my belief that it is ignorant superstition would in turn deride me for being disrespectful of their religion?

That is the situation that the religious place the atheistic in. 
1. Show respect for that which you have no respect, or;
2. Disrespect the dearly held beliefs of your comrades, colleagues and friends.

 

[Michael OLeary]

There you do again, presuming actions by this mythical CO that are designed to support your biases.  "Forbidding a ceremony", and designing a different ceremony with less or no overt religious content are two very different things.

How exactly do you show deference to a God you don't believe in just by mimicking movements?

Stop pretending that simply by being there you are being forced to be a believer.

Stop implying that it's the Spanish Inquisition just because YOU don't like it.

The arrogance of your self-proclaimed victimization is astounding.

 

[Reccesoldier]

There you do again, presuming actions by this mythical CO that are designed to support your biases.  "Forbidding a ceremony", and designing a different ceremony with less or no overt religious content are two very different things.

How exactly do you show deference to a God you don't believe in just by mimicking movements?

Stop pretending that simply by being there you are being forced to be a believer.

Stop implying that it's the Spanish Inquisition just because YOU don't like it.

The arrogance of your self-proclaimed victimization is astounding.

You really don't understand.

God has nothing to do with it because god doesn't exist.  I am what I am talking about.

Try this logic on for size...

There the Blacks go again, presuming actions by this mythical Society that are designed to support their biases.  "Forbidding Blacks to sit up front on the bus", and designing a separate bus just for Blacks are two very different things.

How exactly do you show deference to a rule you don't believe in just by complying with it?

Stop pretending that simply by being in the back of the bus you are being discriminated against.

Stop implying that it's discrimination just because YOU don't like it.

The arrogance of your self-proclaimed victimization is astounding.

**Edited to correct the analogy.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Attempting to draw parallels with racist measures against visible minorities is false logic.

You have kept trying to establish that simply by being at any ceremony with religious content undermines your atheism, but you have not proven it.  You have failed to answer any question which refers to how your atheism is threatened by being in the presence of a religious utterance.

By your 'logic', Jews, Muslims, and any Christian denomination not specifically identifying with the Padre of the CO's choice should also feel equally downtrodden.  But you aren't even trying to speak up for them, because your biases lump all who observe any religion, however fervently or casually, as a single group oppressing you.  Enjoy your hypocrisy.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Attempting to draw parallels with racist measures against visible minorities is false logic.

Wrong, and the law agrees with me, check the charter.  Race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity...

You have kept trying to establish that simply by being at any ceremony with religious content undermines your atheism, but you have not proven it. You have failed to answer any question which refers to how your atheism is threatened by being in the presence of a religious utterance.

You see Michael you are approaching atheism as a religion to be "threatened" it's not, not for me at least.  I have only one desire, to live and let live. 

Don't try to shift the focus.  This isn't about being in the presence of a religious utterance it's about being forced, against my free will to be in the presence of that religious utterance.

But if you wish to phrase the question that way let me ask you, what is it about my presence which is required for the utterance of that religious word.  I don't command you to go without religion what gives you the right that I be present for it?

By your 'logic', Jews, Muslims, and any Christian denomination not specifically identifying with the Padre of the CO's choice should also feel equally downtrodden.  But you aren't even trying to speak up for them, because your biases lump all who observe any religion, however fervently or casually, as a single group oppressing you.  Enjoy your hypocrisy.

Drawing inference where none is made is dangerous, check your premises.

Don't go telling me what I am, and am not in favor of.  9 times out of 10 you'll be wrong.

If someone were going to demand that any one of those peoples sit through a service not of their choice, for no reason other than the fact that they thought they should, then I'd damn well hope that they, and everyone else, including those to whom the service was aimed would be right along side of me telling the CO or Padre (your example) to go pound sand.

It is idiocy to say that a person gives up their free will merely because they don't believe in something.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Attempting to draw parallels with racist measures against visible minorities is false logic.

You have kept trying to establish that simply by being at any ceremony with religious content undermines your atheism, but you have not proven it.  You have failed to answer any question which refers to how your atheism is threatened by being in the presence of a religious utterance.

By your 'logic', Jews, Muslims, and any Christian denomination not specifically identifying with the Padre of the CO's choice should also feel equally downtrodden.  But you aren't even trying to speak up for them, because your biases lump all who observe any religion, however fervently or casually, as a single group oppressing you.  Enjoy your hypocrisy.

It isn't the COs choice who he gets for a Chaplain in the Reg Force. In the Reserves the Chaplaincy recruits the Chaplain (usually from a local church/recognised faith community in the town where the Armoury/unit is located) and the CO has a chance to interview the candidate, but it is rare that he would object or turn down the nomination made by the Area Chaplain who has been through a pretty exhaustive process to ensure the suitability of the candidate. The Chaplaincy has oversight over the suitability to ensure that the Chaplain has the necessary training and experience to minister to all (qne isn't there to proselytise) as is our mandate. Whether you are a person of Faith or no Faith the Chaplain is there to help, counsel,advocate and support. I would say the majority of folks that I've been most help to and with have started by expressing they don't practice or they don't believe.

I guess I would say to those who want to walk off parade no matter what the words are that come out of my mouth...would you do the same when a Politician is invited who stands up on invitation from the Parade Commander. I've listened to a lot of drivel coming out of a lot of different sources on parades and during "briefings"...why is it that my drivel gets centered out for disdain?

Like I said before I always request that people do what is right for them during prayer time....reflect, think about family, fallen comrades etc....I never order or request the bowing of heads or bending of knees.....removal of headdress is a an order to assume a position for an activity similar to ordering people to stand easy when the Commander or the Parade Commander is speaking...it's a uniform adoption of a position which is suitable for the activity to come. In the Navy now apparently the position is mandatory....because some religions require you to keep headdress in place for prayer and those who don't believe don't want to be seen to be conforming to an action they don't believe is valid for them...so be it.

By saying get rid of public prayer altogether you are imposing your belief (that there is no God and no validity to prayer) on others, which is exactly what you are accusing the majority of doing to you now (mistakenly I believe for no one can impose religious belief on another in reality).

PS If there is a CO imposing Evangelical beliefs on a unit either overtly or covertly he is not a good leader and places himself in a position of being in violation of several regulations and indeed the policy of the CF when it comes to religious practice. I would say the same of a leader who is playing favorites in any circumstance be it hockey, drinking, promiscuity etc is a very poor leader indeed. He should check his little cheat card that he was given on "Qualities of Leadership." His RSM should be having a few candid no holds barred chats with him or her as well INHO as well as the Unit chaplain.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Wrong, and the law agrees with me, check the charter.  Race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity...

So, is atheism a religion?  Does it have greater rights than other religions?  You are still not speaking up for those of other religious denominations who might disagree with the specific religious components selected for any one occasion.  I can recall no recent incidents of soldiers walking off parade because the Padre wasn’t “theirs”.  Can you? Please enlighten me and provide recorded examples.

You see Michael you are approaching atheism as a religion to be "threatened" it's not, not for me at least.  I have only one desire, to live and let live. 

Don't try to shift the focus.  This isn't about being in the presence of a religious utterance it's about being forced, against my free will to be in the presence of that religious utterance.

But if you wish to phrase the question that way let me ask you, what is it about my presence which is required for the utterance of that religious word.  I don't command you to go without religion what gives you the right that I be present for it?

If your regiment was being presented a new Colour, would you walk off the parade when the Padre showed up to consecrate it? 

Don’t presume that the absence of religion for me at any ceremony might be equivalent to being  commanded to go without religion.  Don’t presume my level of religious activity or preference, for you may well be very wrong.  Neither am I perturbed if I don’t profess the specific religious direction of the Padre that might show up.  I am above taking such personal actions that might disrupt a broader ceremony of which religion is but one small component.  Tolerating it doesn’t mean I enjoy or agree with it.

Would not “living and letting live” include being strong enough not to disrupt ceremonies that any of those around you choose to find strength in?  Wouldn’t it include being strong enough not to challenge the sense of support it provides them, even if you chose not to draw any yourself?

Your individual presence may not be required, but the perception that you stand in solidarity with your fellow soldiers is certainly an aspect to be considered.  You don’t know how deeply they believe or care; nor will they know your personal thoughts, but that perception of a united body does have a strengthening effect when it matters.  Is walking away worth the possibility that one of your fellow soldiers might think you are walking away, not from religious content, but from the remembrance of his fallen brother?

Drawing inference where none is made is dangerous, check your premises.

Don't go telling me what I am, and am not in favor of.  9 times out of 10 you'll be wrong.

If someone were going to demand that any one of those peoples sit through a service not of their choice, for no reason other than the fact that they thought they should, then I'd damn well hope that they, and everyone else, including those to whom the service was aimed would be right along side of me telling the CO or Padre (your example) to go pound sand.

It is idiocy to say that a person gives up their free will merely because they don't believe in something.

We’re not talking about directed cross-denominational church parades.  Even when the Army had regular Church parades, soldiers went to the Church of their choosing.  Military ceremonies that include some religious content, whether that be a Remembrance Ceremony, presentation of Colours, or whatever the lawful commanders may choose, are generic and all-encompassing, and modern Padres are quite sensitive to that aspect.  Those events no more “make” you a Christian than it does the Jewish soldier standing politely beside you. 

Standing on parade, mimicking the motions of a ceremony, reciting words ….. none of these equal “giving up your free will” unless your will is so weak that it collapses in the presence of such requirements.