Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[chaos75]

Back to the subject of religion in the military, there is definately a problem.  The military being a large institution, is so slow moving to adapt to its changing diverse culture, and the present form of military religion is outdated.  We dont have ministers of all faiths available for whoever needs to pray/services/advice/consultation etc.  If the military wants to keep padres and chaplains as a viable trade they need to relfect the whole CF community. As for prayers and religious ceremonies on parades and such, it is more of a traditional/notional gesture these days as im sure a good number of CF members are non-believers. They should either elimninate prayers from parades, or allow those who do not believe to have their rights respected and not be forced to participate.  Its a matter of principale and respect, show it for those who do believe and those who dont.  I think forcing anyone to goto a church parade is ridiculous, can you imagine ordering a religious soldier to an atheist celebration?.  Just my .02 on the subject.

 

[George Wallace]

chaos75

If we were to substitued "language" for "religion" in your statement, would you still hold it true?

The CF has Chaplains in the major religions of the nation.  It is bordering on the rediculous to think that every Base/Unit/Ship should have a Chaplain for every conceivable religion in Canada.  We would have to have more Chaplains than soldiers.  As a democracy, we have to ensure the rights of the majority first, before minorities (I know we do it ass backwards in Canada) to maintain our society.  As our Armed Forces reflect our society, that is the way things are.  Besides, the cost and administration would be enourmous.  To abolish all forms of Faith in the Forces would be unacceptable to the majority of Faiths in our society.

GW

 

[a_majoor]

The military is a large institution, but it is not homogeneous. A unit in the Maritimes will probably be less "diverse" than one raised in Toronto, for example. Edmonton and Vancouver are both part of LFWA, but a walk through the streets will tell you there are very different recruiting pools.

We do not need to try to create a "one size fits all" policy for religion and Padres, you end up with a situation like having government employees trained at considerable expense to be bilingual working in Calgary...who are they going to talk to?

Most padres I have ever met and worked with are quite comfortable dealing with people from other religions and cultures, and it isn't difficult for someone with "special needs" to approach the chain of command with sufficient advanced notice to request representation from a certain denomination, sect, religion or whatever. I have had Islamic soldiers, Sikh soldiers, Jewish soldiers, Atheist soldiers, Native Canadian soldiers and even one Wiccan soldier under my command, and I always made it a point to let them know they could put in the request any time, and that I would accommodate any special needs as best I could so long as they did not interfere with operational  issues. The other caveat was I would not try to convert them, but they better not be trying to convert me either. We did our jobs, respected each other's beliefs and that , as far as I am concerned, sums it up.

 

[chaos75]

GW

Language is a service entry requirement, you must either speak english or french.  The fact that you speak of the "big two" religions in Canada, just goes to show how a## backwards religion is.  If there is only one god, why isnt there only one religion.  I wasnt advocating abolishing religion in the military, just that non-believers should be given the same rights that religious types enjoy.  We shouldnt be forced to listen to prayers, or remove our headress, or to attend church parades, say grace or any of that.  No one cares that people want to practice their religion, but some not all, of atheists feel their rights are ignored because they are forced to do these things.  

A Majoor summed it up good, everyone should be respected, believer or not, and since I dont think taking of headress is an operational requirement, it shouldnt be a problem not doing it.  Yes its an order, but when done for the purposes of saying a prayer afterwards, it becomes a religous affiliated order.  I think it is good that padres are willing to help out anyone, but I doubt they could give all the spiritual advice needed by someone who is muslim or hindu.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
  The fact that you speak of the "big two" religions in Canada, just goes to show how a## backwards religion is.  If there is only one god, why isn't there only one religion.

Chaos 75,
This is a moderator warning, anymore inflammatory remarks about peoples faith and I will invoke the warning system.
If you cannot debate this issue without throwing mud , then don't debate this issue.
Bruce

 

[George Wallace]

First off Canada is a country of many languages.  Don't you think with your reasoning that the Inuit should have the same rights?  What about Mandarin, which now out numbers Quebecois?

As for me mentioning the "big two" religions of Canada; I did not.  There are Rabis and Mullahs in the Service (Although not many).  Don't warp things to your point of view.

As for the removal of headdress for a ceremonial function, it has already been covered as being a "Courtesy" and sign of respect.  You don't have to pray.  If you enter a Japanese home you are expected to pay the courtesy of removing your shoes--now using your logic about religion, you would be discourteous to your hosts by refusing.  Or perhaps on a visit to a Synagog, you would be discourteous as not to wear a skull cap (whatever its' correct name is).  

Courtesy is the big word here, no matter your beliefs.

GW

 

[Cliff]

Religion in the military...

Most of our Regiments have ties to churches. To ignore religion is to ignore our military tradition = since Christianity did play an important role.

 

[chaos75]

My apologies if I misworded that statement about the big two, and while there may be the odd rabbi or mullah, the main two are Roman Catholic and Protestant, which since I just looked, are the only two listed on the recruiting website for chaplain trade.  Like I said before, I dont have any disagreement with respecting anyone's beliefs or customs, but I object to being forced to partake simply for that reason, im being forced.  You bring up Jewish or Hindu people, you couldnt order them to take off their yamakas or turbans, that would violate their rights.  Again, the military is slow evolving dinosaur when it comes to religion in the forces, no matter what you say about just be respectful and go along with the parades, and ceremonies, I shouldnt have too, thats my right as a non-believer.

And to respect my warning for inflammatory remarks, I wont comment on Christianities role in the military/war. 

However, tradition is great and all, but cultures and societies evolve....including the military however slow it may be

 

[Meridian]

Saying you wont comment on a specific issue is often a comment in itself.

At any rate, I think the very length of this thread goes to show that this is a delicate issue.

 

[48Highlander]

By your logic, you shouldn't have to salute either.  If saluting is a show of respect, and you don't respect the individual you're forced to salute, then your personal beleifs are being infringed on.  They may not be religious beleifs, but they're still beleifs.  If I beleive some guy's a butthole, why should I be forced to show him respect, right?

Chaos, the more you argue this issue the more it shows your ignorance.  Nobody in the military will EVER force you to beleive ANYTHING.  However, you WILL be told to DO certain things.  You might not enjoy all of them, but that doesn't give you the right to refuse the order.  You can give your soul to God, or to the Big Bang if you want, but your ass belongs to the army.  And if your beleifs are truly as strong as you claim, then taking off a goddamn hat and listening to a prayer certainly isn't going to change them, or do you irreparable harm.

 

[chaos75]

Apples and oranges 48, but its easy for someone to say that conforming to religous policies is fine with them when they believe them.  As for my soul and my ass, they both belong to me thank you.  Questioning outdated policies and traditions is not ignorant, its enlightened.  However since this debate is going nowhere, we can all agree to disagree.

 

[48Highlander]

I suppose your "someone" is refering to me.  FYI, I'm not in the least religious.  However, I'm really glad to know that we have such "enlightened" members in the CF.  Makes me feel real good knowing that I may some day be deployed alongside someone who doesn't understand the importance of showing respect for the beleifs and customs of others.  Someone who doesn't even understand why refusing to removing his cover during a religious ceremony is an action unbefitting a member of the forces.  Now that's enlightenment for ya.

 

[buzgo]

I thought the whole headress issue had been flogged to death by this point. I still fail to see how, in the case that was originally the start of this thread, the individual in question was disrespectful. He notified his chain that he had 'issues' - that should have solved the problem there.

There really is no problem with religion in the CF, but I don't know why it needs to be a part of parades (other than Remembrance Day - and its usually multi-faith now,) really, my experience in the regular force has been that its pretty non-existant. I've been ordered to remove headress in order to observe moments of silence when there have been deaths due to training/ops - not too many prayers though.

As long as people keep their beliefs to themselves, everything is cool. I had an evangelical Christian working for me last year, and everyone in the working environment made it very clear that they had no interest in his religion - so he kept it to himself. No problem. The only other topic that really causes conflict at work would be politics, and we don't talk about that either.

 

[Glorified Ape]

As long as people keep their beliefs to themselves, everything is cool.

I think that sums it up pretty well - if everyone did their own religious/non-religious thing on their own time, there wouldn't be a problem. Just my opinion, but it seems ridiculous to me that a secular government institution is conducting religious ceremonies. That's for private citizens to do on their own time, not government employees on the government's time.

 

[chaos75]

I think the last two posts were well made, and I agree with you both, keep religion separate and believe what you want on your own time.

While I bow to the obviously vast military knowledge of 48, I think we should let him become the head recruiter as he seems to know who and what makes a good soldier. All they have to do is follow orders, never question anything, and quote cheesy lines from movies.  I dont think you have to worry about us ever getting deployed together..but if we do ill be sure to come to attention and remove headress in your presence.

 

[elbarto]

I wonder if the Lt(N) who refused the remove headdress command would be willing to apply equal conviction to his values in other areas.  

For example, would it be unreasonable to expect him to be the first in line to volunteer for Base Duty Officer on the 25th of December? After all it is a religious holiday.

Perhaps the actions on the parade would not seem to be as self-serving backed up with other actions â “ "walk the walk" as it were.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Good line of thinking,...... of course does not get a long Easter weekend, etc.... ^-^
I hope those above him were thinking that smartly, ...well actually we have a few on this thread that should be in the same boat,...no?

 

[George Wallace]

No more Duties on Long Weekends....Great!  No more Duties on Religous Holidays.....Great!  Good Show Bruce.....Good points....  ;D

GW

 

[muskrat89]

"From April to June, I would be exempt from duty as that is spring. Spring is the time of fertility and new life for Mother Earth, and to work in that time, as opposed to celebrating the rejuvenation of Mother would be highly disrespectful. If, Sergeant-Major, you refuse to accept my point of view in this matter, I will appeal to the CO to have the Canadian Forces' Wiccan High Priest flown in from his earth-hutch in Northern BC, to set this straight....as is my right"

 

[48Highlander]

I'm just waiting for a Rastafarian to sue the CF for not allowing him to smoke the holy-weed as his religion dictates.

I'm surprised some of the boys in Pet haven't thought of that by now