Replacing the Subs

[SeaKingTacco]

Merlin (EH101)would be closer to how we use helicopters, but that's a bigger helo than the Cyclone (about 3 tons?? some MPH person will correct me here). Might not work for current CPF setup but sure would work for both JSS and CSC setup as JSS hangar is gigantic and CSC hangar is designed for Merlin to begin with.

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I wonder if some of the submarine requirements can be made with UUV's of some sort, or perhaps should be combined with them. Long endurance near ice UUV could work, but given how ice and iceburgs behave it might be risky materiel wise.

Merlin is about 2000lbs heavier than a Cyclone.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

MH60 has less capability then the Cyclone (worse RMP sensors, worse sonar, can't carry a torp and dip and so on). It's also got a lower availability rate then the Cyclone (though I think that has just as much to do with RCAF Technicians and Supply being amazing as it does with the helo).

Of course it has advantages as well (cost, parts, not an orphan class...). Merlin is really the only good comparable out there from where I'm sitting.

MH60 worse availability and worse sensors than Cyclone? Not so sure about that.

Anyway, not sure which idiot started the rumour about MH-60Rs in Canada…

 

[FSTO]

Anyway, not sure which idiot started the rumour about MH-60Rs in Canada…

 

[FSTO]

Going back to Merlin would be quite a slap in the face of “zero elicopters” guy. But I doubt if this group of LPC leaders would catch the connection.

 

[Maxman1]

Merlin is about 2000lbs heavier than a Cyclone.

We were going to fly the Merlins off the Halifax class, until the Chretién government canceled the purchase.

Have we ever embarked Cormorants on SAR operations?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

We were going to fly the Merlins off the Halifax class, until the Chretién government canceled the purchase.

Have we ever embarked Cormorants on SAR operations?

No.

It isn’t possible to embark a Cormorant on a Halifax Class Frigate.

Land and fuel, maybe, if the crew were certified…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Sounds like something a soccer player would say…

 

[KevinB]

Anyway, not sure which idiot started the rumour about MH-60Rs in Canada…

I’m going to keep pushing it. Eventually it will find some traction

MH60 has less capability then the Cyclone (worse RMP sensors, worse sonar, can't carry a torp and dip and so on).

Uhm

It's also got a lower availability rate then the Cyclone

I find that exceedingly hard to believe.

(though I think that has just as much to do with RCAF Technicians and Supply being amazing as it does with the helo).

Of course it has advantages as well (cost, parts, not an orphan class...). Merlin is really the only good comparable out there from where I'm sitting.

I think you could do 95% of the Cyclone role with the 60R, and have more birds at the same time to actually be able to exceed the abilities of the current Cyclone fleet.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I’m going to keep pushing it. Eventually it will find some traction

Uhm

I find that exceedingly hard to believe.

I think you could do 95% of the Cyclone role with the 60R, and have more birds at the same time to actually be able to exceed the abilities of the current Cyclone fleet.

You do that rumour thing. Maybe somebody will pick up on it.

 

[Maxman1]

No.

It isn’t possible to embark a Cormorant on a Halifax Class Frigate.

Land and fuel, maybe, if the crew were certified…

How about the CSC?

 

[Halifax Tar]

MH60 has less capability then the Cyclone (worse RMP sensors, worse sonar, can't carry a torp and dip and so on). It's also got a lower availability rate then the Cyclone (though I think that has just as much to do with RCAF Technicians and Supply being amazing as it does with the helo).

Of course it has advantages as well (cost, parts, not an orphan class...). Merlin is really the only good comparable out there from where I'm sitting.

I'm no expert. But I know what I've seen; and the google web disagrees with you:

Can the MH60 carry a torpedo ? - Google Search{google:instantExtendedEnabledParameter}ie=UTF-8

Can the MH60 carry a torpedo ? - Google Search

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm no expert. But I know what I've seen; and the google web disagrees with you:

Can the MH60 carry a torpedo ? - Google Search{google:instantExtendedEnabledParameter}ie=UTF-8

Can the MH60 carry a torpedo ? - Google Search

I think *Underway was implying ’concurrently,’ but I’m not a grey helo dude so I don’t know the full fit out of a 60R re: armament, dipping SONAR and sonobuoys loadout. Physically, a lot of system development and technology has made the old case of lack of on-board processing power on MHs (particularly the old LAMPS 60s) and extant doctrine of MH pairing, something that isn’t necessarily a “must still do things the old way” situation.

One thing we know for the most part is a crappy “ABM” (anything but Merlin) politically-constrained procurement methodology has done the CAF little good in the non-political real world of helicopter-supported sub-hunting…

 

[Colin Parkinson]

No.

It isn’t possible to embark a Cormorant on a Halifax Class Frigate.

Land and fuel, maybe, if the crew were certified…

Is that due to hanger size? Does the Cormorant tail and rotor fold like a Merlin?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Is that due to hanger size? Does the Cormorant tail and rotor fold like a Merlin?

The Cormorant is a SAR helo. Why would it fold?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think Inderway was implying ’concurrently,’ but I’m not a grey helo dude so I don’t know the full fit out of a 60R re: armament, dipping SONAR and sonobuoys loadout. Physically, a lot of system development and technology has made the old case of lack of on-board processing power on MHs (particularly the old LAMPS 60s) and extant doctrine of MH pairing, something that isn’t necessarily a “must still do things the old way” situation.

One thing we know for the most part is a crappy “ABM” (anything but Merlin) politically-constrained procurement methodology has done the CAF little good in the non-political real world of helicopter-supported sub-hunting…

I have personally witnessed a -60R dip in the Hawaiian Op Areas, with a torp.

It come down to fuel load/endurance.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think Inderway was implying ’concurrently,’ but I’m not a grey helo dude so I don’t know the full fit out of a 60R re: armament, dipping SONAR and sonobuoys loadout. Physically, a lot of system development and technology has made the old case of lack of on-board processing power on MHs (particularly the old LAMPS 60s) and extant doctrine of MH pairing, something that isn’t necessarily a “must still do things the old way” situation.

One thing we know for the most part is a crappy “ABM” (anything but Merlin) politically-constrained procurement methodology has done the CAF little good in the non-political real world of helicopter-supported sub-hunting…

I have to believe that if the USN trusts their ASW in part to the 60R its probably a good bet we could too. They have a lot more at risk than us.

Also buying American gives us the support of thier Mil Industry and Log chain. Which, and I know I am biased, should be the deciding factor for just about any and everything Canada buys for its defence; from where sit at the table.

 

[suffolkowner]

Is that due to hanger size? Does the Cormorant tail and rotor fold like a Merlin?

The Cormorant is a SAR helo. Why would it fold?

I think that was an issue with the hanger and trials on the Halifax class. Didnt we modify one for that purpose?

You can get a EH-101 with a folding tail though. Pretty sure our Cormorants were like the cheapest base model we could get.

If we are going to redo the MHP next thing you are going to want to do is the FWSAR and MSVS, where does it stop?

 

[KevinB]

I have personally witnessed a -60R dip in the Hawaiian Op Areas, with a torp.

It come down to fuel load/endurance.

I’m curious if you could add the wing pods from the DAP’s to add fuel/mission stores.

I’m guessing you wouldn’t be keen on aerial refueling during a hunt.

 

[quadrapiper]

I think that was an issue with the hanger and trials on the Halifax class. Didnt we modify one for that purpose?

You can get a EH-101 with a folding tail though. Pretty sure our Cormorants were like the cheapest base model we could get.

If we are going to redo the MHP next thing you are going to want to do is the FWSAR and MSVS, where does it stop?

Juuuuuust short of tanks and SPGs. Y'all got new trucks, and those tippy things have armour! What more do you need?

 

[Good2Golf]

I’m curious if you could add the wing pods from the DAP’s to add fuel/mission stores.

On the 60 or the 92? Pretty sure either the mid-mount or high-mount ESSS will fit any -60.