Reserve BIQ Course - Weekend edition - experience by others??

[Highland Laddie]

HL: Thanks for your response. I agree with you that you should post your findings to the extent that you can; I think the sharing of knowledge would be useful.

A comment on the belief that we will not achieve "bonding" amongst the members of a weekend-run course. I agree fully that the ideal is to take the course to an isolated training establishment and run it 24/7 until it' s done (OK-throw in some sleep...). Unfortunately, in our case the centralized training system that delivers this type of training experience has failed to meet our needs in any of our MOCs. Neither do we really have the luxury of waiting until next summer to run it continuously. However, if we do not maintain at least some flow of DP1 qual trg, two things will happen: in hte short term the backlog of SQ-qual soldiers will inevitably deplete through attrition caused by waiting. In the longer term(and more importantly from our Bde Comd's point of view), we will further strangle the trickle of soldiers into the NCO ranks. This shortage of NCOs has been an obstacle to our Bde in a number of areas, and we have to keep fighting to defeat it. We face demographic problems in 38 CBG that the "Fat Dumb and Happy" CBGs do not. (Let's see if that gets a rise out of anybody...)

Therefore, we are willing to accept that the platoon that graduates will lack the high level of cohesion that "depot" recruits would have. However, we take into account three other factors. First, the graduates will probably disperse to different units (HL-correct me here...)so the value of   course-level cohesion is reduced. Second, if these soldiers stay with their units, there will most definitely be a bonding: when I was a Militia soldier, my drinking buddies were all guys in my unit: it was my social ife for the most part. Finally, in terms of cohesion for operations, we state (although we don't always practice...) that we will train Res soldiers for a min of 90 days before deploying them on ops. That is considerably longer than any Res BIQ and is intended to build cohesion for ops. Now, in our Bde we just launched a complete D&S platoon for Op ATHENA on about 30 days, but we were able to draw on a reservoir of Res soldiers with op experience. There have been some difficulties, but that platoon is now doing well. Again, the 30 days is probably longer than what their BIQ might be. It isn't the ideal, but then neither is our situation. Cheers.

PBI,

Sir, thanks for the feedback. I'll post updates from time to time here, although I can send any CBG specific points your way via PM if you wish 

In terms of graduates being dispersed, all the candidates are from the two infantry units in the Amouries, and the troops from the two units almost always train together in the field, so no loss there. There is discussion of flying in five potential candidates from the LSSR every course weekend, but we will see how that goes, if at all. I agree with PBI that the cohesion largely begins in the unit, and to a large extent in the Reserves focuses around social relationships (ie drinking buddies, etc). To a large extent we need to focus on the desired end state of more trained troops and adapting & overcoming the current "through put" problems of the WATC-style approach to courses. I also agree with the NCO shortage point as well. In our unit we have four Inf Sgts and one Inf MCpl (and he's on Athena in the D&S Pl), and the shortage is reaching a critical mass. Luckily we are starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel: we have two or three Cpls about to get their leaf, and a good, sizable crop of junior Cpls with leadership potential. We just need to hang in there for another year or two and things will improve. Now, the Junior O shortage is another issue....

I concur on the D&S Pl point sir. Some of my boys are part of that Op. Glad to hear that they are well.

Out.

 

[Highland Laddie]

Since we're not going to through these troops on any ops, this point is rather moot, don't you think, sir?

Actually, the Op deployment point is not moot. Our unit has one of the highest participation rates around. Almost all NCOs Sgt or higher have been on tour at least once, and most senior Cpls and higher have been overseas. I think the point raised by PBI in terms of work up training comes into play here.

I am concerned that the "Delta" training required for workups is increasing due to new kit that we don't see in the Reserves at all (ie LAVs, the new digital battlefield systems being utilized on Op Athena, ERYX, lack of proper training on TCCCS, etc). The lack of training on the TCCCS in the Brigade's units really bothers me. The vast majority of troops and leaders only have a VERY basic understanding of the system, and there is only one Inf Sgt that is qualified to instruct on it in the Brigade that I'm aware of. He's in our unit, but even training on the equipment is problematic, as we don't have our own radios. They are all held by SPS (along with lots of other "mission critical" kit), and this is problematic to the extreme for a wide variety of reasons (both systemic and personnel related).

PBI - Sir, I could have a LONG discussion with you on why we need to get rid of SPS. There are many of us in our Armouries who would consider our Reserve Military career a sucess if we could get SPS disbanded, and the kit back in the control of the individual units, but that is another topic.

 

[pbi]

HL: The whole Garrison System in 38 CBG was studied in detail this summer by our Bde HQ and by an audit team from LFWA HQ. The new Bde Comd has some serious concerns about the system, but we don;t to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I will agree with you that SPS has generated more than its share of concerns, but one of the tasks of the Bde study was to find out exactly (not anecdotally) what these problems were and what causes them. You might be interested to know that the SPS concerns are common in both Regina Grn and Wpg Grn, although not so much in TBay Grn. Get your FTSO to call the G4 shop and find out what the results of the study were (take my name in vain as you see fit...I don't know the results either...)


I think I am at risk of being misunderstood by Highland Fusilier on this cohesion thing. I'm all for it (and, by the way, my vote would be to stay in the Armoury all weekend and NOT go home, but...) but as I tried to explain we had to hold our noses on this one. If we keep going for the Cadillac we will not get out of the hole at all. As I have observed here (and as I have noted often during my tenure, 38 CBG faces a different set of problems, amd frequently develops different solutions, than other Res CBGs especially those in recruit rich areas such as Southern Ontario where I believe HFC is located. I believe that the three factors I identified serve to  reduce the impact of loss of cohesion: they do not make it go away and I am not claiming that. I'm saying it's acceptable risk. Cheers.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

There is discussion of flying in five potential candidates from the LSSR every course weekend, but we will see how that goes, if at all.

Sir, the way it looks now, I've been told that the BIQ plan for us is most likely a No-Go (probably because of the logistics involved for flying us over), and we should just wait for summer...again... -  Thankfully, my unit has good officers, who plan to include us in as much of the unit training as possible, despite our SQ "Handicap".  I can't say that I am 100% happy with the situation thus far, but as long as I and other non-BIQ qual pers can participate in the majority of the unit activities during the training year, I do not have as much of a problem with taking the course in the next summer.

I wonder though, if it will become a double-cohort situation (i.e. the Ontario school system's removal of Grade 13 last year and having twice as many students applying for universities/colleges), with having too many course candidates for too few instructors next summer, for those of us who are unable to get DP1 qualified during the year.

 

[Pikache]

pbi, sir, then my question would be 'why aren't these troops staying at the armoury over the weekends?'
Either I'm not understanding something or we're not on same wavelength here...

HL, sir, I forgot to add 'any time soon' to the sentence that you quoted me. Oops...

 

[pbi]

Before I respond, I'd like to suggest that we stop using "sir" on this net: the beauty of this forum is that offers a level playing field, and thus enables all ranks, experience levels and backgrounds to contribute.

pbi, sir, then my question would be 'why aren't these troops staying at the armoury over the weekends?'
Either I'm not understanding something or we're not on same wavelength here...

I have been deployed since before this course was approved and launched, and I haven't communicated with our Bde G3, so I 'm not sure of the exact reason, but I have to assume that it is due to the finances involved in feeding. It may also be due to quartering: we have had problems with the 17 Wing Fire Chief in the past over people sleeping in Minto Armoury. For whatever reason, the Brigade Commander approved this plan and that's what will happen. I am not sure if I am answering your question. Cheers.

 

[Pikache]

That's what I thought; it's because of cost of feeding that's getting in the way.

I understand the reason why it's being done like this, but I still feel that the troops on this course is getting jipped a little.

Cheers

 

[pbi]

HighlandFusilier:

That's what I thought; it's because of cost of feeding that's getting in the way.

Be careful-that's what I speculated, not what I know. I don't know the exact reason. I agree with you that the troops are not getting the ideal training experience, but in the situation we face, this training is immeasurably better than nothing at all, so that more troops quit out of boredom and "tired of stacking up chairs in the JRC". Cheers.

 

[Highland Laddie]

Before I respond, I'd like to suggest that we stop using "sir" on this net: the beauty of this forum is that offers a level playing field, and thus enables all ranks, experience levels and backgrounds to contribute.



I have been deployed since before this course was approved and launched, and I haven't communicated with our Bde G3, so I 'm not sure of the exact reason, but I have to assume that it is due to the finances involved in feeding. It may also be due to quartering: we have had problems with the 17 Wing Fire Chief in the past over people sleeping in Minto Armoury. For whatever reason, the Brigade Commander approved this plan and that's what will happen. I am not sure if I am answering your question. Cheers.

PBI, I concur on the 'Sir' thing. Old Guardsmen habits die hard  

The BIQ is not staying in the Armouries overnight. I'm not 100% sure why, but it may be due to the 17 Wing Fire Marshall issues you mentioned. I did hear through the grape line that we received a fair bit of grief from 17 Wing about the BMQ / SQ course staying in the Armouries overnight. It may also be due to the fact that we are back in the 'training year' and all the units are parading in the Armouries again.

Per the approved course timetable, we are ceasing training on in-garrison Saturdays / Sundays by 1730hrs. This does appear to be a 'cost-cutting' move, as it means that we don't have to feed the troops dinner. I would prefer to feed them haybox / box dinners and keep training until 2200-2300 hrs and get the most 'bang for the training buck' as possible, but that's just my personal opinion. I'm not too sure if the course is providing lunch either, or whether the troops will have to provide their own (or go to lunch) as we normally do in the units for in-garrison training weekends. I will find out about that tonight.

 

[Highland Laddie]

Sir, the way it looks now, I've been told that the BIQ plan for us is most likely a No-Go (probably because of the logistics involved for flying us over), and we should just wait for summer...again... -   Thankfully, my unit has good officers, who plan to include us in as much of the unit training as possible, despite our SQ "Handicap".   I can't say that I am 100% happy with the situation thus far, but as long as I and other non-BIQ qual pers can participate in the majority of the unit activities during the training year, I do not have as much of a problem with taking the course in the next summer.

I wonder though, if it will become a double-cohort situation (i.e. the Ontario school system's removal of Grade 13 last year and having twice as many students applying for universities/colleges), with having too many course candidates for too few instructors next summer, for those of us who are unable to get DP1 qualified during the year.

Too bad, I would have looked forward to having some more candidates. I do understand that there may be some cost aspects to the decision as well, seeing that they would have had to fly you folks here every weekend, meals, lodging, etc. We had heard that running a course in the LSSR had been considered, but how do you teach inf platoon tactics with 5 pers? I do regret that you'll have to wait untill next summer, but I am happy to hear that your unit is trying to lay on as much training for you as possible.

 

[Highland Laddie]

I just hope Highland Laddie, your NCOs put the discipline to those 'Weekend Warriors!'   Almost all of the guys/gals who I've encountered that did the weekend BMQ/SQ are far less disciplined than those who did the full BMQ and SQ over a summer (or even those who went to their BIQ after!).

That shouldn't be a problem. The NCOs I have from both units are professional, and demanding. No 'beasting' the troops, just good old fashioned demanding inf training! Yes, the 'kinder, gentler' army is changing again! The pendulum is swing back the other way, one troop / course / ex at a time!

 

[pbi]

Thanks for the update. Cheers.

 

[Highland Laddie]

Thanks for the update. Cheers.

PBI and all - FYI, here's the "latest and greatest".

The course kicked off this past Friday, and is progressing well. We have fewer candidates than we would like (14 instead of the 18-20 forcasted), but they as a whole appear to be 'good' soldiers in the making. Standards stopped by and were happy with what they saw, which is a good sign, as their first visit is generally one full of 'points for improvement'. The first of many visits from what I am told, for apparently we are the 'guinea pig' course for Brigade and / or LFWA for this format.

I would like to thank PBI for his insight from"higher" on the intent of these courses. I had a rather interesting conversation with my staff just before the course started, and many shared similar concerns as I did in regards to format, etc. To their credit, they all expressed a desire to make it the best course they could regardless of their concerns (as I knew they would). I did have an opportunity to share some of your views with them (no names of course) in regards why the course is important, why the new format, the intent, etc. I also indicated that our BIQ is the first in the Brigade (I believe in LFWA as well), and we will be under close observation by all parties, up to and including LFWA.  In essence, we have the responsibility for 'setting the standard' for the course format, demonstrating that the concept does work, and can produce well trained troops from unit / garrison run courses. I am happy to say that the staff team felt more than up to the challenge, and are determined to demonstrate to everyone that this concept can and will work, and work well.

The Pl WO also shared an interesting viewpoint, in that he believes this sort of course format may actually produce better and more committed reserve soldiers for the units. His viewpoint was that many soldiers who take the summer 'full time' courses may be primarily interested in full time employment during the summer, and many leave the unit in 1-2 years; whereas those who take this format have generally been with the units for some time, have been waiting for a BIQ course, and are generally more committed to the units and developing as soldiers, as opposed to seeking full time employment. An interesting viewpoint for discussion.

If any one is interested, I'll post updates from time to time. Hopefully others can learn from our 'lessons learned' file. Cheers, out.

 

[Infanteer]

The Pl WO also shared an interesting viewpoint, in that he believes this sort of course format may actually produce better and more committed reserve soldiers for the units. His viewpoint was that many soldiers who take the summer 'full time' courses may be primarily interested in full time employment during the summer, and many leave the unit in 1-2 years; whereas those who take this format have generally been with the units for some time, have been waiting for a BIQ course, and are generally more committed to the units and developing as soldiers, as opposed to seeking full time employment. An interesting viewpoint for discussion.

Actually, I think there is alot of wisdom to this statement.  I remember under the old QL2/3 format (was it that long ago?!?  ) that soldiers would swear in and go directly to Wainwright, get fully trained as a rifleman (on the units dime, no less) and return to the unit and figure they don't like the Thursday night routine and clear out.  The attrition rate of freshly qualified privates was brutal.

With the way your running things, the unit can make a gradual investment into the skills of a soldier, dependent on the extra time the soldier feels he can put back into the unit (ie:show up for the training).

 

[Highland Laddie]

I remember under the old QL2/3 format (was it that long ago?!?   ) that soldiers would swear in and go directly to Wainwright, get fully trained as a rifleman (on the units dime, no less) and return to the unit and figure they don't like the Thursday night routine and clear out.   The attrition rate of freshly qualified privates was brutal.

It wasn't that long ago! I went through a similar QL2 / QL3 summer system out east when I joined up as a troop, and I still have most of my hair (although not for a lack of the Reserves trying to get rid of it) ;D

 

[pbi]

The Pl WO also shared an interesting viewpoint, in that he believes this sort of course format may actually produce better and more committed reserve soldiers for the units. His viewpoint was that many soldiers who take the summer 'full time' courses may be primarily interested in full time employment during the summer, and many leave the unit in 1-2 years; whereas those who take this format have generally been with the units for some time, have been waiting for a BIQ course, and are generally more committed to the units and developing as soldiers, as opposed to seeking full time employment. An interesting viewpoint for discussion

You know, I never thought about this, but now that I reflect on it I think it is probably true. I would be very interested to know the attrition rates over (say) three years of summer BIQ versus those produced from courses like this. (Might be difficult as we haven't run too many of the latter).

Great to know the course is off and running. I'll be in the 'Peg on leave in Nov/Dec-perhaps I can drop in on one of your weekends? Cheers.

 

[Highland Laddie]

You know, I never thought about this, but now that I reflect on it I think it is probably true. I would be very interested to know the attrition rates over (say) three years of summer BIQ versus those produced from courses like this. (Might be difficult as we haven't run too many of the latter).

Great to know the course is off and running. I'll be in the 'Peg on leave in Nov/Dec-perhaps I can drop in on one of your weekends? Cheers.

Please feel to stop by. Give me a shout when you are in town. Hopefully the weather will be more predictable then. Its been a brutal summer, as I'm sure you've heard.

 

[krugan]

Highland Laddie,

Overall, how did it turn out and do you think it can become successful?  Can you get a feel from the recruits that do it this way that they (a higher percentage) may be more committed for the long run, than lets say someone doing it for a few years to earn tuition and pad their resume?

 

[Pte Cowden]

I just found out today that my Summer BIQ is cancelled. Which totally blows, i was really looking forward to the whole 2 months of SQ, BIQ and Ex Stalwort Gaurdian.

But now i've just got the SQ and i more that likely won't be allowed to participate in the Exercise at the end of august. However, i was told i'll be put on a weekend BIQ course in the fall. My unit wants us fully trained before Christmas, i just passed my BMQ, (it feels good and was really looking forward to the challenges summer would bring me on both courses.

Sir, IMHO the main thing that could help the weekend BIQ course is making sure that it is twice as hard as a weekend SQ and three times as hard as a weekend BMQ. Which pretty much means lots of agression, involved in everything. Make sure they know the real reason why they're there. Not to pay off their school loans, but for the good of the canada.

Good luck to you