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Reserves - are they of any value?

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Gunner

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today, sending reservists on their own (platoons, companies) on operations is not tacticlly sound.

It has been done in the past (ie Cyrprus, Roto 11, 12, 13, etc to Bosnia) and by all accounts was very successful.   2 PPCLI at Medak Pocket had a very large percentage of Reservists (often over 50 in the line coys).

The experiance level in that platoon or coy is not mature as that of a Reg force unit of the same size.

Agree, but with a good work up training program, it can form as a cohesive group.

You can't compare a reserve master corporal to a reg, even a private trained (reg) has more experiance than most reserve ncm's.

In the Reserves you get a wide variety in the level of experience but if the CF wanted the Reservists to have the same level of experience as the Reg F soldier, they would sign him/her up to a multi-year contract.

[Edit: quotes taken from this thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33288/post-250798.html#msg250798]

 
I do agree augmenting, only if we have to as it the military used to. My rifle coy in the peg was the training cadre for delta coy which went to bosnia, I know bosnia can't compare to afghanistan. Anyways, the training was good the soldiers were, well let me put it this way, if I had to go afghanistan with that coy, I either shoot them or myself before deploying. And I'm sorry, but I can't take them seriously, because here in Wainwright these reservists see it as one big summer camp and party and like I stated their maturity level is&&^^%%
 
I used to think that too - until I transferred to the Reserves and spent some time in a Reserve unit.

Quality and experience varies quite a bit  - hell, a LOT - between Reserve units, so it's tough to make generalizations across every single unit. But I will state categorically that I would have taken 43 PEIR circa 1996 anywhere in the world and they would have done every bit as well as any Regular Force unit I ever worked with. Give me a couple of weeks of work-ups on the latest kit, and they would have been just fine. In fact, better than fine - I'd've taken on any unit in the Army with those boys.

41 Windsor R circa late 1997 had all the latent talent and plenty of esprit de corps, but suffered from a lack of recce experience as the Regiment had only just switched roles that spring. They had the basic soldier skills, but didn't have the experience that the PEIR did. They were, however, quick studies, and could have been brought up to speed pretty quickly if required. A couple of months in an RV-style exercise and they would have been serviceable. A little green, perhaps, but they could have gotten the job done. No donkeys in that group either.

In fact, one of the major motivators for my "retirement" was the fact that I was spending all this time building unit cohesion, esprit de corps, troop SOPs that were so well drilled as to be effectively reflex etc and we were never going to be deployed as a unit. As a commander, that's as frustrating as all hell. As a soldier, that's frustrating as all hell too - you build up the trust and respect of your peers, and then you get picked out of your regimental family and sent to a unit where not only are you an outsider, you're a "militia plug" and an assumed idiot.

The concept being floated around these days that Reserve units will be sent in-theatre as an actual unit (like the Yanks do) has me really very excited, and is a big motivator for my coming out of retirement. It makes all the effort that goes into being an effective commander and building an effective unit worthwhile - and that effort is *considerable*.

DG

 
You have to look at it from our point of view, we (reg force troops) do this for living and this is our life. We wait for this kind of opportunity to deploy, and soldiers who do this part time are ASKED if they want to go on this operation (I'm sorry even being tasked to a reg force unit doesn't cut it, because at the end they go back to part time), you can understand the frustration. Until reservists join reg force and live Battalion, Battery, or regiment life for 4or 5 years the standard at all levels will never be equal! :rage: :rage: :rage:
 
BITTER

This site is militia dominated, and they will argue their employability with you until the END OF TIME.

I've done it, and it never ends. I agree with you as to the employment capabilities of reservists, but it will only start running wars here that don't really solve anything.

So only "tell it like it is" if you want an endless fight.  :)


 
GO!!! said:
BITTER

This site is militia dominated, and they will argue their employability with you until the END OF TIME.

I've done it, and it never ends. I agree with you as to the employment capabilities of reservists, but it will only start running wars here that don't really solve anything.

So only "tell it like it is" if you want an endless fight.   :)

GO (and to a lesser extent Bitter PPCLI Cpl), this site isn't militia dominated and, if anything, members of the site show a general bias against Reservists until they prove themselves to be capable of providing "value added" responses.   You, on the other hand, simply by being a member (albeit junior) of 3 PPCLI with an Op APOLLO tour are generally accepted at face value as being knowledgable.

If you want to discuss/argue employment capabilities of reserves or how they should or should not augment the Regular Force, you are free to do so.   No one is going to stop you.   Moreover, if you want to get into a bare knuckled, drag out fight on whether we need a Reserve Force at all, you are more than welcome to do it.   Many Reservists will be the first to say they are trapped in a large bureaucratic organization, with multiple levels of command, and relatively few bayonets.   Maybe you can provide some guidance or leadership on where you see Reserve infantry fitting into light or mechanized battalions?   You and BPC seem to have issues with integrating them into your battalions but don't you understand why CRIC's were formed for Op PALLADIUM?   Did you want to deploy to Zgon/Drvar/Velika Kladusa to play euchre for six months again?

All I, and the other moderators (reg and res), ask is you to articulate your argument in a thought provoking and reasoned manner.   The use of half truths, blatant lies and derogatory terminology about the Reserves will not be tolerated.   Your complaint about Reserves being "asked" to go on tour is very shallow and demonstrates a total lack of knowledge about the Reserve Force and their conditions of service.   Can a Reservist be as good as a Regular, some may be, but they generally are much younger, less experienced, lacking in the level of individual and collective training compared to their Regular Force counterparts.   Does this mean there is no role for them in the CF?   I highly doubt you will get many informed people agreeing with you.  

Cheers,
 
BITTER PPCLI CPL said:
You have to look at it from our point of view, we (reg force troops) do this for living and this is our life. We wait for this kind of opportunity to deploy, and soldiers who do this part time are ASKED if they want to go on this operation (I'm sorry even being tasked to a reg force unit doesn't cut it, because at the end they go back to part time), you can understand the frustration. Until reservists join reg force and live Battalion, Battery, or regiment life for 4or 5 years the standard at all levels will never be equal! :rage: :rage: :rage:

So you're saying that there is no way that a reservist can EVER work up to the same standard as a reg. force person?  What about those reg. force pers that have less than the 4 or 5 years that you mentioned?

I'd say it mainly depends on the individual and his willingness to rise to the challenge.  There are some reservists who are POS and others that are good to go.  I'm sure that in your unit there are plenty of soldiers that aren't worth the value of the kit they're issued and others that put their heart and soul into everything they do.

The system does have its faults, but I would say that ignorance and prejudice that lead to reg. vs. reserve pisssing matches is probably one of the greatest problems that the Canadian Forces faces.

Buck up and judge the soldier based on his attitude and peformance, not the cap badge he wears.
 
Matt,

Perhaps you can provide some perspective on this (seemingly ancient Canadian debate) from your US vantage point. I know there is a US Marine Reserve - what's the relationship  between reg. force marines and the marine reserve? Do they have the same debates/tensions - or is this something uniquely Canadian?

Cheers, mdh
 
Go and Bitter,

Do not assume that any given Reservist started life in the Reserves. Many of them have Reg Force time - some more than you do.

DG
 
mdh said:
Matt,

Perhaps you can provide some perspective on this (seemingly ancient Canadian debate) from your US vantage point. I know there is a US Marine Reserve - what's the relationship   between reg. force marines and the marine reserve? Do they have the same debates/tensions - or is this something uniquely Canadian?

Cheers, mdh

There is a certain level of rivalry that exists between the active and reserve Marines, however pretty much all that rivalry has subsided with the current war in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as operations elsewhere.   Reserve Marines stand alongside their regular brethren, doing the same jobs. You've also got to realize that all Marines go through the same recruit training and MOS schools in mixed platoons.   Additionally, a much higher percentage of reserve Marines are former active duty than compared to the Canadian reserves.  

I'll be the first to admit that if you take a reservist just mobilized and his regular counterpart, the reservist will have a rusty skillset, however during pre-deployment work up training those cobwebs are shaken off.   Additionally, where the regulars have strengths in doing their job day in and day out and mastering 'the little things', reservists often bring a wealth of non-traditional skillsets along with them.   You may have a reservist that in civilian life is a carpenter and as such is an excellent resource for pioneer or reconstruction type projects and requires little training in this area, or you may have others that work as civilian paramedics and as such will see more trauma cases than their regular counterparts, or you may have another that is a law-enforcement officer and is indispensable in constabulary type urban patrolling situations, etc.   A great example of this was a Sgt. in my platoon in Iraq.   In civilian life he was a civil engineer and owned his own engineering firm.   While overseas his billet was a recce. section leader and he excelled at it in that his engineering background gave him the experience to do some of the most detailed recce. reporting that 1st Marine Division had ever seen, to the point that he was given a formal award by our battalion commander upon recommendation from Division HQ.   Additionally, while we were stationed at the Al Kut airbase in eastern Iraq, a US Navy Construction Battalion (Sea Bees) stationed beside our company lines sought his assistance to plan a reconstruction project that was rebuilding a bridge over the Tigris river near the town of Al Aziziya.  Another example was our platoon's Navy Corpsman (medic).  In civilian life he works as a paramedic with the Fire Department of New York and has seen more gunshot wounds and other trauma cases than most active duty Navy Corpsmen.  Through his efforts and skillset he helped save the life of one of my platoon mates that was severely wounded by an RPG during an ambush in August of 2003 in the southern outskirts of Baghdad, the same AO that the Black Watch were deployed to in 2004 that is known as the 'Triangle of Death'.

The fact is that presently the Canadian Forces are understaffed, underequipped and overtasked.   To ignore the resource that the reserves provide to help alleviate some of the manpower shortages is just plain dumb.
 
GO!!,
Lets see if I got this straight. The reservist Cpl. on this site with two + tours[ there are a few] and who has actually gone out and patrolled "live"  must be looked down upon by myself as I have 10+ years Reg force, no reserve and NO tours ?

Something smells funny.......

 
There is a certain level of rivalry that exists between the active and reserve Marines, however pretty much all that rivalry has subsided with the current war in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as operations elsewhere.  Reserve Marines stand alongside their regular brethren, doing the same jobs. You've also got to realize that all Marines go through the same recruit training and MOS schools in mixed platoons.  Additionally, a much higher percentage of reserve Marines are former active duty than compared to the Canadian reserves. 

I'll be the first to admit that if you take a reservist just mobilized and his regular counterpart, the reservist will have a rusty skillset, however during pre-deployment work up training those cobwebs are shaken off.  Additionally, where the regulars have strengths in doing their job day in and day out and mastering 'the little things', reservists often bring a wealth of non-traditional skillsets along with them.  You may have a reservist that in civilian life is a carpenter and as such is an excellent resource for pioneer or reconstruction type projects and requires little training in this area, or you may have others that work as civilian paramedics and as such will see more trauma cases than their regular counterparts, or you may have another that is a law-enforcement officer and is indispensable in constabulary type urban patrolling situations, etc.  A great example of this was a Sgt. in my platoon in Iraq.  In civilian life he was a civil engineer and owned his own engineering firm.  While overseas his billet was a recce. section leader and he excelled at it in that his engineering background gave him the experience to do some of the most detailed recce. reporting that 1st Marine Division had ever seen, to the point that he was given a formal award by our battalion commander upon recommendation from Division HQ.  Additionally, while we were stationed at the Al Kut airbase in eastern Iraq, a US Navy Construction Battalion (Sea Bees) stationed beside our company lines sought his assistance to plan a reconstruction project that was rebuilding a bridge over the Tigris river near the town of Al Aziziya.  Another example was our platoon's Navy Corpsman (medic).  In civilian life he works as a paramedic with the Fire Department of New York and has seen more gunshot wounds and other trauma cases than most active duty Navy Corpsmen.  Through his efforts and skillset he helped save the life of one of my platoon mates that was severely wounded by an RPG during an ambush in August of 2003 in the southern outskirts of Baghdad, the same AO that the Black Watch were deployed to in 2004 that is known as the 'Triangle of Death'.

The fact is that presently the Canadian Forces are understaffed, underequipped and overtasked.  To ignore the resource that the reserves provide to help alleviate some of the manpower shortages is just plain dumb.

Matt,

Excellent post,

cheers, mdh  :salute:
 
I can't blame Bitter and GO for being pissy, I'd be pissy too if I was subjected to being sent hither and yon depending on the whims of the Gov't of the day. No offense meant, seriously, I'm not making a dig. When I came back from Croatia I thought  a lot about joining the Reg Force but the knowledge that I might be killed of maimed for something that may or may not have anything to do with defence of our country I decided that I preferred having the option to volunteer for things I felt were worthy of my time. Sorry if that sounds arrogant but there it is. I'm just not willing to give up everything I've worked for to go to Yugo/Afgan to guard a gate and be treated like a retard.

 The real problem with our system, as I see it, is that the Reserves can't be deployed. We can't be deployed so no one takes the Reserves seriously. We don't get the training we need to be good enough to go because we aren't going to go, and because we don't get the training we need to be good enough to go, we can't go. Subsequently we have a high percentage of losers in our ranks because our training is not up to the standard necessary to produce fighting soldiers and leaders. Additionally the individuals who have the time to deploy to a tour, go on course, or take taskings are not typically the cream of the crop so to speak. Not to put too fine a point on it but there's generally a reason why they have the time.

For those of you who are offended, that has been my experience, and it comes from being in three different Reserve units over about 15 years (I gather that that's about 1 year Reg force time). Yes, I am painting with a very broad brush but I volunteered for a deployment a while back so I could very well be talking about myself. The point is, our best and brightest generally don't go on tour and generally don't progress too far through the ranks. This phenomenon tends to self perpetuate as the losers generate more losers who in turn generate more losers and so on and so on and so on. What is the solution? I don't know. If I were King of Canada I would order a general mobilization of the Reserves immediately. We've languished long enough and too many of us have forgotten what the whole thing is all about. Of course it won't happen, the DND/CF is not that much different from most other Gov't orgs. No concern about return on investment. It seems like GO and Bitter would do away with the reserves all together, might not be a bad idea when you think about how much money is spent of the reserves vs how many deploy.

Of course once all of our military is locked safely away in Canada's Hinterland who will care one way or the other what happens to them?






 
As this topic has been discussed in several other threads:

What should the role of Canada's Army Reserves be? How should they structure & train for it?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24381.0.html
*which is currently locked

Mobilization is Dead...
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30150.0.html

Reserve Force Regimental System under review
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23337.0.html

I put forth the suggestion to the moderators that since this topic has shifted away from the original query of what is the possibility of reservists under the age of 18 being deployed in accordance with UN regulations (which Canada is observing) banning the use of child soldiers and is now turning into a reg vs. reserve pissing match, this topic be locked as Gunner answered the original question.
 
lack of res training has always bothered me. I do not know the real short comings in the combat trades but for the CSS it always bothered me.

When i was res fin clerk in the army  total course time and i was trained to a ql6a was 6 weeks of total classroom training and that was it.
friends who were the same trade in the navy or air res units, they got the same training as reg force clerk, with the res information added to the course.
how could the army  allow such the res army  side of the house to be so far  behind in training?
ql3 fin class was at Base Borden, 1989 last 2 weeks of August first week was maybe 6 hours a day of training, second week average training time was 5 hours maybe 3 hours of breaks a day was not unusual near the end of the course
ql4 fin class was held at a highschool in Toronto , 1990 end of August 2weeks,  about the same as the ql3  for class time
ql6a CFSAL 1993 2weeks again less breaks but more time spent on non trades training, more time on public speaking and stuff.

total class time was 30 days
weekends were always off, usually off early if no one other class noticed us gone.  Course at Toronto I could go home to my grandparents at night and as long as I was back in the York U dorms by 11 Pm they did not care. None of the courses were very army  like.

and we wonder why  the reg force laughs at training of res force soldiers. hard to take us serious when the Privates in the Regs have more training in the same trade then a Mcpl or Sgt.

Some of you may wonder why there is screw ups in your pay cheque ?
lack of training, lack of training and lack of training is the biggest issue
just my  thoughts here
 
I'll take Matt's suggeestion and lock this thread as it has deviated from its original purpose.  If you want it reopened, let me know.

For FormerHorseGuard - I submit that reserve training has changed alot since you took your training 15 years ago.  More time was spent on collective training vice individual during the 80s (IMO).
 
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