Royal Canadian Air Force headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general

[daftandbarmy]

If a child soldier is shooting at Canadian soldiers then the soldiers should get on a phone and call the child's parents.

Interesting you should say that...

One of our biggest threats, in downtown Belfast, were crowds of kids throwing things at us day and night. Troops would get bottled, bricked, and dirty diapered, which earned them various stitches etc.

We put a stop to it eventually, by running big arrest operations on, yes, children, in concert with the police.

We'd have a vehicle 'break down' in rock throw territory knowing that they would converge on us like hungry sharks. Once the rain of debris started we would throw a cordon in around them, bundle them (terrified) into Pigs, then take the to the police station. We would then call their parents, who would have to GO INTO THE POILICE STATION to sign them out.

The IRA watched the police stations, of course, so knew that 'Mr and Mrs so and so from the Divis Flats' had gone into the station - perhaps to inform on them to the police. That night, they would usually get a visit from the Boyos and a gypsy's warning.

Funny, after that, the kids decided that going to school was a better option.

 

[George Wallace]

We put a stop to it eventually, by running big arrest operations on, yes, children, in concert with the police.

We'd have a vehicle 'break down' in rock throw territory knowing that they would converge on us like hungry sharks. Once the rain of debris started we would throw a cordon in around them, bundle them (terrified) into Pigs, then take the to the police station. We would then call their parents, who would have to GO INTO THE POILICE STATION to sign them out.

The IRA watched the police stations, of course, so knew that 'Mr and Mrs so and so from the Divis Flats' had gone into the station - perhaps to inform on them to the police. That night, they would usually get a visit from the Boyos and a gypsy's warning.

Funny, after that, the kids decided that going to school was a better option.

WIN/win situation.  Large WIN:Kids no longer a problem.  Small win: IRA temporarily confused.

 

[medicineman]

Interesting you should say that...

One of our biggest threats, in downtown Belfast, were crowds of kids throwing things at us day and night. Troops would get bottled, bricked, and dirty diapered, which earned them various stitches etc.

We put a stop to it eventually, by running big arrest operations on, yes, children, in concert with the police.

We'd have a vehicle 'break down' in rock throw territory knowing that they would converge on us like hungry sharks. Once the rain of debris started we would throw a cordon in around them, bundle them (terrified) into Pigs, then take the to the police station. We would then call their parents, who would have to GO INTO THE POILICE STATION to sign them out.

The IRA watched the police stations, of course, so knew that 'Mr and Mrs so and so from the Divis Flats' had gone into the station - perhaps to inform on them to the police. That night, they would usually get a visit from the Boyos and a gypsy's warning.

Funny, after that, the kids decided that going to school was a better option.

When we were sitting on our rucksacks waiting to not go to Zaire in '96, this very ROE scenario was played out as part of our (sit down in class) training - I was a syndicate lead because I'd been deployed before.  We went through the gradual force continuum stuff to someone taking something out of a vehicle...which in the end it turned out to be a rifle, so now we're chasing this kid with a C7.  The scenario came to the point where the kid stops and turns around - What do you do?  We discussed in our little group, one of whom was an AJAG, but in the end I just wanted a bit of clarification.  They came to me - "Syndicate 1, what is your response?"  "I just need clarification - does this kid that's running away whirl around on me or does he stop and slowly turn around?"  The class DS, who incidentally had never left the wire in Visoko, responded "You're chasing this kid, you've fired warning shots at them and they all of a sudden stop and turn around with the rifle!"  So I said without blinking an eye "I'd drop them where they stood".  Nothing but gasps and dropped chins and "How could you?!".  She looked at me with rather wide eyes - "Well, that is an option..." - it was apparently the third COA on the DS sheet, vice the first.  The only person smiling was the lawyer, who said he'd back me up if I felt the need to fire.

We've all seen this somewhere, whether it's NI, Croatia/Bosnia, Rwanda, Afghanistan, etc, where the adults use(d) the kids to do their dirty work since they feel we're less likely to do anything.  In the case of actual child soldiers, we actually see similar things in North America with gangbangers - a 12 year old is just as able to, and more likely to, shoot someone than an older person is simply because they don't completely understand finality of death.  I kept my air pistol on the dash of my ambulance in Croatia for the later part of my tour, since the kids were becoming more brazen...the ROE stated we were allowed to return fire with like fire, so it was there to deal with airguns, slingshots, etc.  Once I started displaying it, no more rock throwing...and I never fired it in anger...at a humanoid.

I suppose I could also bring up the Canadian Army facing off against the 12 SS (Hitler Youth) Division in Falaise/Caen...wonder if anyone thought to talk to the vets that fought there    ?

MM

 

[George Wallace]

I suppose I could also bring up the Canadian Army facing off against the 12 SS (Hitler Youth) Division in Falaise/Caen...wonder if anyone thought to talk to the vets that fought there    ?

MM

I was thinking that, but didn't want to invoke Goodwin's Law.    [

 

[sandyson]

The name to remember here is Kurt Meyer who was in charge.  They gunned down Sherbrooke Fusilier prisoners of war.  While he was convicted for this, the Canadian government later accepted him into Canada then gave him a job as prison librarian in New Brunswick.
The announcement seems more politically motivated than necessary. They are covering their proverbial asses.

 

[mariomike]

I suppose I could also bring up the Canadian Army facing off against the 12 SS (Hitler Youth) Division in Falaise/Caen...

I believe they were 18.

12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend

https://www.google.ca/search?q=12th+ss&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=JQVCWNzvH4WN8QeRioDABw&gws_rd=ssl#q=12th+ss+1926

 

[Jed]

I believe they were 18.

12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend

https://www.google.ca/search?q=12th+ss&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=JQVCWNzvH4WN8QeRioDABw&gws_rd=ssl#q=12th+ss+1926

A guy from my home town said he was 16 before the Cdns captured him.

 

[mariomike]

A guy from my home town said he was 16 before the Cdns captured him.

I'm just going by what I have read. That members of the 12th SS were born in 1926.

Including on here,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+12th+SS+1926&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=YAlCWL_uNION8QeZ3KrgCA&gws_rd=ssl

Not to discredit whatever the guy from your hometown told you.

 

[Old Sweat]

I believe later in the campaign some reinforcements were younger. Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but the Hitler Jugend Division is not a good example of the child soldiers our troops could encounter in Africa. The young Germans were disciplined and operated under the control of older, more-experienced veterans of the Waffen SS from the Eastern Front. That is not necessarily the case for child soldiers.

And, contrary to popular belief, the 12th SS Division fought fanatically, but were tactically not all that good. Kurt Meyer embellished their achievements in his memoirs, but a lot of his claims do not stand up to critical analysis. Sorry for the sidetrack.

 

[larry Strong]

"......A recruitment drive began, drawing principally on 17-year-old volunteers, but younger members 16 and under eagerly joined. During July and August 1943, some 10,000 recruits arrived at the training camp in Beverloo, Belgium....."

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-boy-soldiers.htm

".....with the majority of the enlisted cadre being drawn from Hitler Youth boys between the ages of 16 and 18......"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth#World_War_II

https://www.google.ca/search?biw=1200&bih=584&q=hitlerjugend&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiSk9HS3tbQAhVN-mMKHRY7AdwQ1QIIVSgC






Cheers
Larry

 

[mariomike]

12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend
The origins of the 12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend can be traced back to late 1942 and early 1943. In all probability, the idea to create a "Hitlerjugend" (Hitler Youth) division was first tabled by SS-Gruppenführer Gottlob Berger for Hitler's consideration sometime in January of 1943. His vision called for the drafting of all HJ members who were born in 1926 and assigning them to a "Hitlerjugend" combat formation.
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/119-germany-waffen-ss/germany-waffen-ss-divisions/1290-12-ss-panzer-division-hitlerjugend

 

[Jarnhamar]

Maybe we can issue soldiers (signed) "less lethal" boxing gloves to deal with the little munchkins?

 

[larry Strong]

12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend
The origins of the 12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend can be traced back to late 1942 and early 1943. In all probability, the idea to create a "Hitlerjugend" (Hitler Youth) division was first tabled by SS-Gruppenführer Gottlob Berger for Hitler's consideration sometime in January of 1943. His vision called for the drafting of all HJ members who were born in 1926 and assigning them to a "Hitlerjugend" combat formation.
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/119-germany-waffen-ss/germany-waffen-ss-divisions/1290-12-ss-panzer-division-hitlerjugend

Not to say that younger was not accepted.......


Cheers
Larry

 

[mariomike]

I just awarded Jarnhamar 1,200 Milpoints!  That's a bit too generous, I only meant to award +300!

 

[medicineman]

Maybe we can issue soldiers (signed) "less lethal" boxing gloves to deal with the little munchkins?

Tazers?

MM

 

[daftandbarmy]

One of my previous jobs was Pl Comd, Junior Parachute Company, Depot Para and Abn Forces.

We took school leavers at the age of 16 and trained them for a year, by which time they were ready for 'adult service'. Those who passed entered the 6 month recruit training course. Amongst other things, they attended regular educational upgrading and were allocated a milk allowance. Yes, a milk allowance. I paid them in cash, at a pay parade, every month. Though it was a modest pay packet, for many, it was the most money they had ever seen in their lives. Every month.

They did everything the adult soldiers did, up to and including live firing and 10 milers. Unlike the adult soldiers, they participated in extensive adventure training activities including mountaineering, various kinds of skiing and a variety of competitive sports.With few exceptions, all who made it into Recruit Company went on to become long service soldiers. Many RSMs were Junior Paras at one time.

Good Fanatics. That's a good way to describe these fine young fellows. Would they have been formidable opponents in an infantry gunfight if required? Absolutely.

We ignore the capabilities of similar young fighters, in other lands, at our peril.

 

[a_majoor]

I suspect if our leaders would treat our "adult" solders a bit more like Daftandbalmy's junior trainees, *we* would find retention much easier as well 

WRT the "child soldier" issue, this is going to be pretty big in the news, since it is easily sensationalized and can be used as a club against the troops when enthusiasm for the mission fades. (How much of a club it will be used against the ill advised decision to do the mission in the first place is open to question). OF course, in places like Mali or Sudan, radicalization of the Islamic community means that it isn't just "child solders" who put our soldiers at risk, but everyone in the radicalized community, as well as assorted foreign fighters eager to bag an "infidel" and assorted profiteers and hangers on who have their own motivations for conflict.

It is difficult to imagine what a quick, easy and media friendly solution will look like. I'm a bit torn between re reading "Street Without Joy" or "Hell in a Very Small Place" (both by Bernard Fall) as primers in what to expect...

 

[mariomike]

Not to say that younger was not accepted.......

My reply was to this question.......

I suppose I could also bring up the Canadian Army facing off against the 12 SS (Hitler Youth) Division in Falaise/Caen...wonder if anyone thought to talk to the vets that fought there    ?

Child soldiers have been a concern expressed throughout these 28 pages.

But, as a non-expert, I would question the value of asking our surviving vets who served in Falaise/Caen for advice on how to fight, or avoid fighting, child soldiers. 

Simply because I question if military experts consider the 12th SS at Falaise/Caen to be a child soldier unit?

 

[beachdown]

So, right after Xmas then for soldiers to start rolling into Mali and Senegal????

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I just awarded Jarnhamar 1,200 Milpoints!  That's a bit too generous, I only meant to award +300!

I don't think that should happen.