Strict security, growing costs impede major military purchase

[GAP]

Strict security, growing costs impede major military purchase
U.S. limiting exports to Canada over espionage fears, files show
DANIEL LEBLANC From Tuesday's Globe and Mail August 5, 2008 at 3:48 AM EDT
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OTTAWA — Ottawa is facing an uphill battle to carry out a promised purchase of $17-billion in new military equipment because of stringent U.S. security rules and ballooning costs caused by a series of delays, newly released documents show.

According to Foreign Affairs briefing notes, the government is blaming U.S. security measures that limit the export of military technology to Canada, as American authorities fear some Canadian workers will engage in espionage.

In addition, documents from National Defence show the government will either have to pay an extra $300-million in "overrun cost" to purchase a fleet of 16 Chinook helicopters, or settle for less equipment.

The Harper government announced in 2006 that it was purchasing three new fleets of aircraft, three new ships and hundreds of new trucks for the Canadian Forces. However, only one new fleet of planes - the giant Boeing C-17s - is operational, while another fleet of Hercules C130J cargo planes is on order.
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[Greymatters]

According to Foreign Affairs briefing notes, the government is blaming U.S. security measures that limit the export of military technology to Canada, as American authorities fear some Canadian workers will engage in espionage. 

Are they referring to Canadians conducting espionage against the US, or Canadians acting on behalf of third parties conducting espionage? 

 

[CBH99]

I think they are concerned that individual Canadians may participate in espionage against the US by sharing/exploiting the technology with 3rd parties.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't a similar article published in the papers about 6 months ago - one of the things hindering certain contracts from being signed??  One thing that points to this is that Canadians who are also citizens of certain other countries are not allowed to participate in any part of the contract, such as Vietnamese, Iraqi, etc, etc.

Personally, I don't really understand what the issue is.  Chinook helicopters are nothing new -- why are they worried that the "technology" may be exploited?  Its an aircraft that has been in service for decades, and many of the systems onboard would be fairly standardized and most likely Canadian in origin anyhow...would they not??  (Out of my lane here, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Same thing goes for the C130J.  I don't understand where their concerns come from in regards to the technology being exploited by individuals.  Its a cargo plane, in which the history goes back several decades also.  We're not talking F-22 or F-35 technology here, nor are we talking about aircraft currently in development.  We're talking aircraft that are in service all over the world, that have been around for decades....what is all the fuss about??

 

[aesop081]

Personally, I don't really understand what the issue is. 

Thats because you are not thinking beyond the airframe itself. If our aircraft (Chinnok or Herc) come equiped with things like DEWS, MAWS, CMDS, LAIRCM, etc....  then it becomes a technology security issue.

Another concern is that parts for those aircraft are in demand in certain nations that operate older versions of both and those countries are no longer on the US side of the GWOT. The US is increasingly concerned about user nations selling ( illegitimetaly of course) parts to beligerent nations.

I'm not saying that they have a valid concern when it comes to Canada but concerns none the less.

 

[geo]

Aviator...
The Chinooks of England, Holland, Australia, Germany and a wide range of other countries are equiped with such technology.  Somehow I think these other countries are just as porous to industrial foreign national spies as we are....

 

[aesop081]

Aviator...
The Chinooks of England, Holland, Australia, Germany and a wide range of other countries are equiped with such technology.  Somehow I think these other countries are just as porous to industrial foreign national spies as we are....

Listen, i'm not saying that there is a problem with us specificaly. Those countries aquired their Chinooks a long time ago ( in the RAF's case for example) but what i am saying is that the US definately thinks twice and looks everything over a few times before exporting anything.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is a post 9/11 issue - just one of many.

All countries are having similar problems. Our dual citizenship laws exacerbate the problem for some Canadians and for some Canadian employers.

The US restricts the flow of information - end to end - in terms of who may have access to it. Canadians, qua Canadians, may have access to all but the most extremely sensitive information but a Canadian who is also a citizen of, for example, Syria may not because Syrians - all Syrians, even those with Canadian citizenship - are precluded from having access to that information. Being a dual national disqualifies that particular Canadian from having access to information the US is willing to share with most other Canadians.

Employers in Canada are precluded, by Canadian law, from discriminating based on inter alia dual nationality. Therefore a Canadian company that wants needs access to US classified information - to do part of he work on US equipment being sold to and maintained in Canada, for example - must find a way to segregate some employees with dual nationalities without, in any way, impeding their careers and prospects in the company. It's a worry. It's just one of the reasons why so many immigrants have so much trouble being hired. It's not going to get easier soon.

The US has an absolute right to control 100% of its information any way it chooses. If we don't like it we can buy other stuff.

 

[CBH99]

Ah, Aviator....like you usual - you always make good points.

I understand the concerns about sharing technology illegitamately with countries that are no longer friendly to the US....but aren't those concerns mitigated by our own demands??  We are undoubtedly going to require replacement parts, and lots of them - because we tend to keep aircraft for a very, very long time.  However, I understand the US concerns to be valid in regards to industrial espionage.

I am curious, and I don't believe I'm violating any OPSEC rules by asking....but don't Canadian companies provide many of the systems that are installed in the aircraft??  Either C130J or Chinook -- and therefore, since most aircraft are "Canadianized" before entering service, most forms of industrial espionage could happen in regards to those systems anyhow??

I'm completely out of my lane here, so if Aviator or anybody else could answer them I'd appreciate it.  I was always under the impression that many systems that were installed in Canadian aircraft were Canadian in origin, and therefore wouldn't pose a risk to US technology being exported here.

 

[aesop081]

Geo, i will give you an example of the US maintaining a straglehold on technology transfer.

JSF

While the F-35 will be sold to a good number of countries ( those that dont back out of the deal for the JAS 39...haha) , the US will not relinguish total control over the computer software that makes the thing fly. Those nations who purchase the F-35 will not be able to tinker with / modify / whatever to the software of the aircraft unless the US has a hand in it.

CBH99.....

"Canadianization" does not always mean "equiped with Canadian designed and built systems". It can always simply be a matter of inputing systems built elsewhere that differ from the standard manafacturing model. Besides that, alot of modern EW related systems are not built in this country.

 

[CBH99]

Ah, thanks for the clarification Aviator.

I was always under the impression that when things were "Canadianized" - it meant that the government was trying to promote Canadian industrial spinoffs by installing Canadian technology aboard the projects being purchased.  Thanks for the clarification.

 

[armyca08]

A number of Canadian Companies - based in Quebec supply components for the JSF, 50+ companies although only 125million of close to 1/4 trillion $'s or between 0.0006%  and 0.001% profit share.

Although I'm wondering about this can not modify software thing. It is situations like that that would have you hope the many many bright local scentists and programmers could be put to work developing local technologies - but it is all essentally a NATO shopping list anyway.

There is no lack of technological talent in Canada. The DND appears to rather spend a few Billion on buying standard equipment than developing a weapons project - we all know what happened with the AVRO - a damn fine aircraft that ended up being peicemeal for future US Fighter Platforms. It seems now Canada just pays the US directly rather than doing the research for them too - well not exactly true with the 50+ insitutions involved in the JSF in Canada.

I do find it sad that Canada ended up on the USA's restricted export list - although I find it odd that Canada can't produce equivlent technology on its own - I think it could. But it is all about standards. I wouldn't hesitate to home brew the technology.

 

[lennoj]

This is a post 9/11 issue - just one of many.

All countries are having similar problems. Our dual citizenship laws exacerbate the problem for some Canadians and for some Canadian employers.

The US restricts the flow of information - end to end - in terms of who may have access to it. Canadians, qua Canadians, may have access to all but the most extremely sensitive information but a Canadian who is also a citizen of, for example, Syria may not because Syrians - all Syrians, even those with Canadian citizenship - are precluded from having access to that information. Being a dual national disqualifies that particular Canadian from having access to information the US is willing to share with most other Canadians.

Employers in Canada are precluded, by Canadian law, from discriminating based on inter alia dual nationality. Therefore a Canadian company that wants needs access to US classified information - to do part of he work on US equipment being sold to and maintained in Canada, for example - must find a way to segregate some employees with dual nationalities without, in any way, impeding their careers and prospects in the company. It's a worry. It's just one of the reasons why so many immigrants have so much trouble being hired. It's not going to get easier soon.

The US has an absolute right to control 100% of its information any way it chooses. If we don't like it we can buy other stuff.

This is quite true, and to add to your well laid out post on the operational side of contract law processes...for those who are interested.

1) DND outsources or contracts out something to private industry
2) PWGSC is responsible to do the security clearance on that company, however, only the DSO or CSO has to be cleared in order to receive a clearance for the entire company for handling/production/information sharing/whatever of that controlled good.

The two points above - sensu stricto - could very well be where the US's concern lays. Industrial Espionage is one of the primary threats to Canada and to our economy as it stands current.

--ER Campbell, where did you receive your LLB?

 

[geo]

One of the problem with contractors in Canada has to do with their employees...

US defense contractor has an  employee born in China, Russia or Iran.... these peiople become US Citzens and are cleared to operate
Cdn defense contractor has an employee born in China, Russia or Iran... these people become Cdn Citzens - contractor is not permitted to have them anywhere near the work being done for the defense project...

 

[George Wallace]

One of the problem with contractors in Canada has to do with their employees...

US defense contractor has an  employee born in China, Russia or Iran.... these peiople become US Citzens and are cleared to operate
Cdn defense contractor has an employee born in China, Russia or Iran... these people become Cdn Citzens - contractor is not permitted to have them anywhere near the work being done for the defense project...

You didn't see the difference?



The Cdn Defence Contractor's employees didn't become US citizens.    ;D



On the more serious side, but following that statement, the "new" US citizens would then be liable to US laws and regulations and more easily monitored/controlled/policed by US authorities and open to prosecution under existing US Laws.  The Canadian "citizens" would not be so easily "regulated".

 

[geo]

Yup... am well aware - guess they just don't trust our securtity "vetting" of those new canadians

 

[rtangri]

My two cents:

Canada should show some backbone strength, clearly ask Washington one more time; "Are you going to sell us all the equipment with at least most technology, or should be buy from Russia, a country not only willing to sell more products with no delay, but a country which will also sell the products with all equipment." Not only is it disrespectful of the US to be treating us like a satellite country that harbours terrorist, but it undermines the dual effort playing in North American security. Also, better relations with Russia would also be made. Canada should always try and work alongside our southern brother, USA, and hopefully both countries work to being partners, rather than the father son relationship enjoyed by the USA. Russia has the same, if not some better arms, and for cheaper, loyalty to the USA has always been our concern on the security front, but enough treating us like idiots. Canada deserves NEW equipment, and if not even that, at least very functional, and semi-technological equipment that comes at no delay and at a very discounted price.

Do I see Russia possibly supplying our new weapons , time will tell, and I guarantee you for anyone who is about to try and be a genius by saying well Georgia just got invaded, so its going to be hard now, ITS NOT. National defense comes before opinions of an invasion on another continent, especially in the case an arms dealing country like Russia.

Thanks

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Makes more sense to put forward a homeland effort to produce our own tools and instuments for own defence purposes. The US should have no say in producing our own defences within our own borders with our own people and technology.

They may not "like it" but they certainly don't have the right to put the stop to it.

Cheers.

 

[karl28]

                 As a  Canadian  I would love to see Canadian made and operated military equipment .   I am just not sure how the rest of the public would go for it .  It would probably take twice as much money to  develop and build here in Canada . The left leaning voters would have a field day with that crying out how unjustified it is to spend that much on National Defense ( I don't agree with that  thinking  but it would probably happen something like that )  .     Basically with the current majority of the voter mindset in Canada I just do not see the CF getting any major  Canadian made equipment any time soon .

 

[Snafu-Bar]

It would create much needed jobs and promote forward thinking by it's people. The alternative of throwing money at other nations does NOTHING good for us at home beyond procurement.

National Defense needs to be treated like any other industry we have and as such promote it, nurture it and develope it.



Cheers.

 

[geo]

karl & snafu... buying Canadian is a great concept but, consider the time it takes to go from the design to prototype to production model.  Once the model is decided upon, then we have production costs - spread out over a small number of units... and finally, the kit we have probably won't be compatible with the kit used by our allies.

We've experienced this problem time and time again.  Considering the size of our Forces - buying canadian isn't always the best solution.