TASER OPINIONS?

[medaid]

(prescence of knives make it a deadly force situation, taser or no taser).

Force +1

 

[zipperhead_cop]

"They couldn't use a Taser on him because there wasn't a sergeant there. So they trust new cops with guns but not Tasers. There's something wrong with that," Vrekalic told the CBC.

It is always a bit of a drag when some unmedicated MHA dude jumps the rails and gets themself hurt or killed.  IMO if someone is diagnosed with a chemical imbalance caused mental disorder the State should mandate forced medication with immediate incarceration on failure to comply with medical regimen prescribed.  However, that might be a topic for a separate thread. 
As for the above quote, that is the reality on the ground in Ontario for municipal officers (not sure what the OPP policy is).  Only members of the Tactical squads or sergeants are allowed to carry Tasers as part of their standard equipment.  One goofy nuance is that if I am the acting sergeant one day, I have to take out a Taser with me.  But if the next day I'm back to regular patrol, I can't carry it.  My qualification didn't evaporate at the end of the shift, but since the books say that we can't carry it, we don't.  I think every officer would be happy to have that extra less-than-lethal tool on their belt if it meant that they might not have to shoot a guy. 
However, at such time as more of us have Tasers, there will obviously be more Taser related incidents (and the predictable whining, pissing and moaning that goes with that).  At present, what you won't read in the paper is how often we put ourselves at risk fighting with or disarming people instead of shooting them.  Of course, there are plenty of people out there that think it is part of our job to get hurt in the line of duty.  They typically are the ones who bray against Taser use. 

 

[J.J]

A letter from the Victoria Times Colonist...it took a Doctor to speak the truth . Let's see if CBC, CKNW, CTV etc pick up on this one/ Any bets? Read on..

Choice to subdue Dziekanski right


December 20, 2008



I am not a police officer. I am a physician.

I have seen aggressive, psychotic individuals unable to be subdued by three or four burly, strong men, both in and out of hospital.

I have seen unstable individuals deprived of alcohol, nicotine, friends and in isolation (airplane), with an inability to communicate, in a confined space, turn into an aggressive psychotic individuals, unable to be subdued by four strong males.

The police did not have the luxury of medicines at hand as is the case in hospitals.

They had only the choice of being unable to subdue Robert Dziekanski or using the tools that were issued to them for just such an incident.

Their choice was correct.

Unfortunately, his aggression continued despite several Taser stuns, and he eventually died, but not from the Taser, according to the autopsy report.

I support the police in their actions, in this case.

Peter Richardson

Saanich
© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist

 

[observor 69]

Ah yes the good Doctor is a man of strong opinions.


http://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/116694/BC/Victoria/Richardson

 

[zipperhead_cop]

So maybe his people skills are lacking?  Nobody faulted him on job knowlege.  In what way is he lacking the ablility to speak to a medical condition?  ???

This comment was classic though:

He makes Greg House seem like Tinky Winky

Good luck with your lame ticker, thin skinned one. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

Quote
"The problem with Tasers is that they are inherently open to abuse, as they are easy to carry and easy to use and can inflict severe pain at the push of a button, without leaving substantial marks," said the report's author Angela Wright, a researcher at Amnesty International.

I have a little device on my keychain known as a Kubotan, and I'm trained in its use.  It can do all the things this report claims, and costs about $9.00.  ANY weapon, lethal or otherwise, makes the playing field uneven, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Sorta looks like a mini asp.

 

[The_Falcon]

And you can also be charged for carrying one

CC Sec 90

90.  (1) Every person commits an offence who carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition concealed, unless the person is authorized under the Firearms Act to carry it concealed.

Definition of Weapon Sec 2 CC

"weapon" means any thing used, designed to be used or intended for use

(a) in causing death or injury to any person, or

(b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person

and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes a firearm;

 

[Kat Stevens]

No, it's a keychain if anyone asks.  Local mounties saw it hanging out of my pocket, and asked what it was.  Why, a key fob, constable, nudge nudge, wink wink.  Oh, have a nice day then, nudge nudge, wink wink.  And they're not prohibited, you can buy them at any MA supply store.

 

[The_Falcon]

No, it's a keychain if anyone asks.  Local mounties saw it hanging out of my pocket, and asked what it was.  Why, a key fob, constable, nudge nudge, wink wink.  Oh, have a nice day then, nudge nudge, wink wink.  And they're not prohibited, you can buy them at any MA supply store.

That works until you run into an officer with a martial arts background (or just happens to know what a kubaton is), and decides to be an asshole.  And I never said it was a prohibited weapon, that doesn't mean sec 2 and 90 don't apply. 

 

[IrishCanuck]

I was wondering as well if you could get charged with weapons dangerous for having the kubotan.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

If I beat someone with a jug of milk it would be assault with a weapon.  If you use it as a weapon it becomes one. 

Kubotans by themselves are only illegal if they are the ones with the blade that is concealed on the inside. 

Irish, you would have to be doing some pretty crazy shite to get Weapons Dangerous with a kubotan 

 

[Kat Stevens]

I've had to use mine, once in the 12 years I've carried one, nothing too dramatic, and the guy didn't stay around to press charges.  It's a pretty devastating little device if used properly.  Both my daughters now carry them.

 

[IrishCanuck]

If I beat someone with a jug of milk it would be assault with a weapon.  If you use it as a weapon it becomes one. 

Kubotans by themselves are only illegal if they are the ones with the blade that is concealed on the inside. 

Irish, you would have to be doing some pretty crazy shite to get Weapons Dangerous with a kubotan 

lol 10-4

 

[mariomike]

CBC story from Dec 2009.
It caught my eye because it says:
"Police rethinking Taser use on mentally ill, inquiry told":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/12/01/ns-hyde-police-taser-training.html
"It also plans to train dispatchers to recognize signs of mental health disorders when a 911 call is made and to deploy Emergency Health Services in such cases."
This story is from Halifax. I was surprised to read this was not the case there already.

I know the Toronto 911 Call Receivers have never hesitated to transfer their "211" ( mental ) calls to the Paramedic dispatchers. The mental health community has always been pretty vocal in this city. As one of them put it, “We’re worried because we’re the people who are going to get shocked.”
Quote:
"According to Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair’s own analysis, in 2006, city cops deployed the devices in 156 incidents. In all but nine, the subject appeared “to have a mental disorder” or was in some sort of “crisis.” "
Globe and Mail 11 Feb 2008.

The police services board seemed less than enthusiastic to hand tasers out:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/07/11/to-taser.html

P.S. I am not "anti-Taser". Anything that made the job easier was ok by me. I only wish they invented them three or four decades ago. Sometimes, quietly sitting down and letting them blow off steam at you helped calm them ( and the family ).
I never saw a taser used, but I was trained ( like everyone else ) to remove the probes. ( Except above the clavicles; in the nipples; or in the scrotum or genital area ).
I heard about a guy got Tasered in the eye at Dufferin and St Clair:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/10/29/siu-taser.html

 

[zipperhead_cop]

CBC story from Dec 2009.
It caught my eye because it says:
"Police rethinking Taser use on mentally ill, inquiry told":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/12/01/ns-hyde-police-taser-training.html
"It also plans to train dispatchers to recognize signs of mental health disorders when a 911 call is made and to deploy Emergency Health Services in such cases."
This story is from Halifax. I was surprised to read this was not the case there already.

That story smacks of politically correct, fluffy idiocy.  When someone is clearly suffering from a mental heath disorder, we already treat them differently.  If you go too heavy on them, you just make it hard on the next officer.  We go out of our way to talk to them and try to diffuse whatever is going on.  A Taser is a USE OF FORCE OPTION, used when a person is starting to range out of the active resistive (struggling to get away, kicking, thrashing) portion of the use of force model and into the assaultive portion (trying to punch, kick, harm us deliberately).  The two have NOTHING to do with each other.  At such time as anyone, regardless of mental state or lack thereof, is demonstrating the behaviors I mentioned (or worse) they get dealt with.  There is never going to be a time where officers put their safety on the line in order to put on kid gloves just because somebody decided not to take their meds.  Perhaps the medical community should get their thumbs out of their asses and make community treatment orders more common? 

"According to Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair’s own analysis, in 2006, city cops deployed the devices in 156 incidents. In all but nine, the subject appeared “to have a mental disorder” or was in some sort of “crisis.” "
Globe and Mail 11 Feb 2008.

Well, thank you for that Chief Obvious.  I bet a large percentile of high speed collisions happen when cars drive fast too. 

The police services board seemed less than enthusiastic to hand tasers out:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/07/11/to-taser.html

That article is from 2007!  I think they got over it.  They needed more info.  That is reasonable. 

P.S. I am not "anti-Taser". Anything that made the job easier was ok by me. I only wish they invented them three or four decades ago.

They did, but they used to be called "hickory sticks" and "black jacks" 

Sometimes, quietly sitting down and letting them blow off steam at you helped calm them ( and the family ).

Paramedic crews here will not enter a house that has an MHA person until we have arrived, entered and signalled them to come in.  However, if Toronto Paramedic crews want to wade into potentially violent MHA calls without the police and get into a protracted chit chat about life and its nuances they can have at 'er.  At least they will be qualified to tend to their own wounds when they start getting injured. 

 

[mariomike]

However, if Toronto Paramedic crews want to wade into potentially violent MHA calls without the police and get into a protracted chit chat about life and its nuances they can have at 'er.

As the result of a lawsuit against the city for "Delay of Service", which resulted in the unpaid suspensions of two Emergency Medical Dispatchers, two Paramedics, and one Operations Supervisor, there is a new S.O.P. on when to delay service, and when not to.:
http://www.toronto.ca/emssoprecs/

Edit to add:
This is the new "Delay of Service" S.O.P. for our Paramedics.:
"Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."

"Not enter a scene until the appropriate agency has arrived in circumstances involving;
• the use of weapons at the scene;
• continuing violence at the scene;
• fire / hazardous materials"
http://www.toronto.ca/emssoprecs/pdf/Patient-Care-and-Scene-Safety-Policy.pdf

"The decision to delay EMS service must include recognizing and evaluating the reasons for problematic patient behaviour—such as metabolic causes of combative behaviour—to ensure staff are not jeopardizing the patient’s life, health or safety.

 

[WTShields]

I feel inclined to chime in here.

Someone that I know quite well works in the stats as a sheriff's deputy. He is a taser carrying unit, and uses Taserhappy as part of his online identity. Shortly after the aformentioned Vancouver incedent, I said to him that he might want to change it incase anyone heard his name in conjunction with his taser use.
His quote was as follow "Man , I have  been trained in its use. I know what it does and I have had it used on me. If I deploy my taser its because the F*@&er deserved it."

Secondly,
All I see with the local service (and it really bugs me) is so back and forth. If members deploy a taser as a non-lethal they say "NO tasers are wrong." 2 weeks later when a non-taser baring unit shoots a Native Male carrying a large butcher knife in a crowded parking lot , they say "Why didn't they just wait for a taser unit ?"
NEWS FLASH SOCIETY !!!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!

 

[mariomike]

NEWS FLASH SOCIETY !!!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!

Darned if you do, and darned if you don't. 

 

[zipperhead_cop]

NEWS FLASH SOCIETY !!!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!

You must be from somewhere other than Canada?  In this country, you certainly can have it both ways.  Multiple ways.  Then you get to complain that you had too many options.  Then you get to point the finger at the person who helped you find multiple ways. 
The sheeple seem to feel that it is part of an officers job to risk injury to get the job done.  We take on a certain amount of risk, but we do not (and never will) tolerate violence for the sake of consideration towards a subject.  If our general society wasn't so lacking in integrity and personal accountability this would be a no brainer.  But people want to be able to poke the dog through the fence and still be able to demand it gets put down when it jumps over and bites them.