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The David Ahenakew Thread- Merged

Piper said:
If it had been a white guy saying it, he'd have been drawn and quartered in the media and left to rot in prison.

Name a white guy who has been drawn and quartered and sent to rot in prison. More racist crap as far as I am concerned, this forum is getting rife with it. Look at it judiciously, as Edward has and stop posting every knee-jerk little thing that pops into your brain. The judge considered the merits of the case and made a ruling. I see no evidence that white men have been "fried" for saying similar things in similar circumstances. If you are referring to Zundel and his ilk, I suspect there is a wide gulf between offhand comments and institutionalized race hatred.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Name a white guy who has been drawn and quartered and sent to rot in prison. More racist crap as far as I am concerned, this forum is getting rife with it. Look at it judiciously, as Edward has and stop posting every knee-jerk little thing that pops into your brain. The judge considered the merits of the case and made a ruling. I see no evidence that white men have been "fried" for saying similar things in similar circumstances. If you are referring to Zundel and his ilk, I suspect there is a wide gulf between offhand comments and institutionalized race hatred.
stuff it. As a member of a minority, I have yet to be offended by "racism" on these boards. Save your White Man's Burden-Liberal guilt for somewhere else. THAT offends me.
 
Michael,

Would you contend that aboriginal protestors in Caledonia are being treated the same as would white protestors doing the same things?


Matthew.  :salute:
 
Okay let me throw this bone out...a white English person makes the SAME and EQUAL comments about this David Ahenakew creature...he is a disease...his people should be fried and stuff like that...

Can anyone tell me this is an acceptable ruling and really really mean it?  No apparant double-standards here?
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
Michael,

Would you contend that aboriginal protestors in Caledonia are being treated the same as would white protestors doing the same things?


Matthew.   :salute:

and therein is the double-standard...and...the problem.
 
Mud Recce Man said:
Okay let me throw this bone out...a white English person makes the SAME and EQUAL comments about this David Ahenakew creature...he is a disease...his people should be fried and stuff like that...

Can anyone tell me this is an acceptable ruling and really really mean it?  No apparant double-standards here?

It's all in the article you posted.

We have the right to express an opinion no matter how twisted it is. There is a difference between standing up in front of classroom and spouting his garbage, and expressing those views privately, or in this case, to a reporter. He gets an award for stupidity, but he wasn't "preaching race-hatred" like Julius Streicher or something.

I think Edward's point was that there are better ways to handle it than racism laws, and he did receive an appropriate punishment via the loss of the Order of Canada and now continued public scrutiny.

I'm willing to believe there is a judicial double standard, if you can present a similar case for examination. Otherwise, despite what paracowboy might think, then comments about "Indians getting off easy" are unfounded and inherently racist, if that is the argument. Or is the argument that caucasians couldn't make the same comments about aboriginals without being punished more severely? Okay, state your case by providing an example. We can throw generalizations back and forth til the cows come home.
 
Actually?  What is he getting away with? 
Chief Justice Robert Laing ruled that Ahenakew did not have the necessary intent needed for a conviction, and ordered a new trial.

He is slated for another trial.
 
Mud Recce Man said:
and therein is the double-standard...and...the problem.

I don't know of any white protestors that have protested land claims. And I'm not trying to be clever, but if we're going to discuss this, let's discuss this on the merits of specific facts. I know of no situation in which caucasians in Canada would protest ancient lands. So if the argument is that the Natives are being treated differently, well, of course they are, they occupy a unique position in Confederation. Should we treat them with kid gloves? Personally, I think it is probably time to take the gloves off. But I wouldn't want to be the one to make that decision either.

You really don't see why the protestors in Caledonia might be different than, say, your G8 protestors?
 
George Wallace said:
Actually?  What is he getting away with? 
He is slated for another trial.

+1  ;D

(I'm getting the hang of this).

Not being smug, but these arguments do tend to live or die based on the actual facts rather than generalities.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
I don't know of any white protestors that have protested land claims. And I'm not trying to be clever, but if we're going to discuss this, let's discuss this on the merits of specific facts. I know of no situation in which caucasians in Canada would protest ancient lands. So if the argument is that the Natives are being treated differently, well, of course they are, they occupy a unique position in Confederation. Should we treat them with kid gloves? Personally, I think it is probably time to take the gloves off. But I wouldn't want to be the one to make that decision either.

You really don't see why the protestors in Caledonia might be different than, say, your G8 protestors?

I guess, personally, I am thinking more of the "actions" they are taking, vice their "cause".

From here in Halifax, I only get to see what the media cough cough puts on the news perhaps...but...setting things on fire...denying citizens access to roads, barricading yourself on land that is "legally" owned by someone else...

Like I said, the "causes" of the group (any group) is not a concern to me so much as the actions they may or have taken.  Such as...throwing a temper-tantrum when you get some of your own medicine, digging up the road and dragging power grid infrastructure down with your truck.

*Edit - damn I just went off topic in my own topic (slap).

I guess the original question is the intent of the thread...are our laws applied to one (even close to being) standard to all citizens of Canada?
 
Mud Recce Man said:
I guess, personally, I am thinking more of the "actions" they are taking, vice their "cause".

From here in Halifax, I only get to see what the media cough cough puts on the news perhaps...but...setting things on fire...denying citizens access to roads, barricading yourself on land that is "legally" owned by someone else...

Like I said, the "causes" of the group (any group) is not a concern to me so much as the actions they may or have taken.  Such as...throwing a temper-tantrum when you get some of your own medicine, digging up the road and dragging power grid infrastructure down with your truck.

From your perspective then, I can see your frustration. They're commiting illegal acts and apparently getting away with it. If you or I went out and did the same thing, chances are we would be treated differently. I can think of an example now - the "celebrations" on Whyte Avenue in Edmonton. Lots of pasty white folks creating a ruckus and getting theirs asses hauled off to jail.

I think you do have to go deeper than just the actions though, and once you get yourself into the whole issue of land claims which may even be legitimate...paracowboy can write it off as Liberal guilt or whatever he wants, but if we're going to do things judiciously, then let's do them. The trouble is its all murky and whatever is done, sets a precedent for other cases, other land claims, other groups.

On the face of it, yeah, of course it looks like they're getting away with stuff. I mean, they are. If you get my meaning?

EDIT - so to answer your edit - the laws don't apply to all Canadians equally because the laws are different. The treaties and unique status of the Natives ensure that. Immigrants are another case; they can be deported. Those of us born here can't. The laws have to be different. I personally would prefer a system that allows for individual tolerance and interpretations of the law. The other end of the spectrum is pretty terrible to contemplate, IMO.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
It's all in the article you posted.

We have the right to express an opinion no matter how twisted it is. There is a difference between standing up in front of classroom and spouting his garbage, and expressing those views privately, or in this case, to a reporter. He gets an award for stupidity, but he wasn't "preaching race-hatred" like Julius Streicher or something.

I think Edward's point was that there are better ways to handle it than racism laws, and he did receive an appropriate punishment via the loss of the Order of Canada and now continued public scrutiny.

I'm willing to believe there is a judicial double standard, if you can present a similar case for examination. Otherwise, despite what paracowboy might think, then comments about "Indians getting off easy" are unfounded and inherently racist, if that is the argument. Or is the argument that caucasians couldn't make the same comments about aboriginals without being punished more severely? Okay, state your case by providing an example. We can throw generalizations back and forth til the cows come home.

As requested Michael:

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/06/02/1610947-sun.html
What the Jury wasn't told
By SAM PAZZANO, COURTS BUREAU


Robert Linklater, centre, on trial for the 2004 stabbing death of Miriana Ivancicevic, in University Ave. court yesterday. (Pam Davies/Sun illustration)
Seven weeks before Miriana Ivancicevic was stabbed to death, her accused killer was spared a jail sentence for knifing his girlfriend 13 times.

But the jury that began deliberating yesterday in the first-degree murder trial of Robert Linklater, 23, never heard of that assault nor of his criminal record of more than 50 convictions.

"The justice system let my sister down -- we let a guy who had stabbed his girlfriend 13 times out in the community and seven weeks later, my sister was killed," Ivancicevic's sister, J.J. Daniele, said while waiting for a verdict.

Linklater pleaded not guilty to the April 1, 2004, death of Ivancicevic, 44, with whom he had been drinking along with other friends.

Since he never testified at his murder trial, his criminal record was off limits to the jury.
 
For the assault on his girlfriend, Linklater was given a six-month sentence to be served in the community, mainly, the judge noted, because he's an aboriginal and his lengthy record is mostly for property offences. He was also banned from drinking or having a weapon.

Justice Harry LaForme, who is a Mississauga Indian and a highly regarded judge who was later promoted to the Court of Appeal, decided "to remedy the crises of drastic over-representation of aboriginal people in our penal institutions."

"Mr. Linklater stands before this court as yet another representative of the aboriginal community who is a symbol of our society addressing the effects of aboriginal history and not the cause. At the same time, he is a repeat offender who has been convicted of a serious violent offence," LaForme said.

Linklater, who is virtually illiterate and may suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome, began abusing alcohol at age 9.

He denied killing Ivancicevic in an April 7, 2004, statement to homicide Dets. Bill Vieira and Mario Di Tommaso, which the jury heard.

His DNA was found under Ivancicevic's nails and Crown attorney Robin Flumerfelt said it showed she fought her killer.

The vicious attack on Linklater's girlfriend, Tracy Wesley Vanhartskamp, also an aboriginal, on June 21, 2002, mirrors the assault on Ivancicevic.

Linklater repeatedly stabbed her in the stomach, cut her across the neck and phoned his sister to ask her if he should make sure she was dead. He returned after the attack.

"Ms. Vanhartskamp would have likely been killed by Mr. Linklater had it not been for her obesity," stated LaForme in his sentencing judgment on Feb. 9, 2004.

The jury is to resume deliberations today.

....of note, Linklater was found guilty.


http://www.therecord.com/links/links_06060211027.html
Law no longer rules in Caledonia
A group of native protesters has been flouting the law for more than two months and government just watches
Friday June 2, 2006
MATT WALCOFF
RECORD STAFF

(Originally published May 31, 2006)

Good liberal that I am, I have always tried to be on the side of the aboriginal inhabitants of North America. Lately, though, I've been hit with a bout of cognitive dissonance over the standoff in Caledonia.

News reports about members of the Six Nations taking over part of the town, destroying property and making life miserable for the citizenry challenged my impression of the Iroquois as a group of underappreciated victims of the perfidy of the white man.

Last weekend, I decided to check out the situation in Caledonia for myself. Initially, I saw little sign of conflict. The barricades looked more like a picket line in a labour dispute than parts of a war zone.

I had no intention of involving myself in the dispute, but I thought it would be cool to snap a picture of the barricades from a safe distance for posterity. I stopped my car on the other side of the street, away from the disputed property. I clicked the button and prepared to be on my way.

How foolish of me to believe the laws of Canada were in effect in Caledonia.

Immediately, a one-eyed protester came darting across the street, motioning to me to roll down my window. I complied, which was my second mistake.

"Gimme your film," he said.

"I'm sorry?" I asked.

"Give me your film. We have authority from the OPP to take your film."

I found it ironic that someone challenging the authority of the government of Ontario would use the OPP as his justification to harass a passer-by. My journalist's instincts set in. I told the one-eyed protester that one, the camera was digital and two, that I was on a public road and had the right to take a picture.

"What public road," my inquisitor asked.

"This one. Highway 6."

"This was Highway 6," he said with a humph. "It's our lane now."

Two more protesters, a man and a woman, joined this unscheduled customs inspection. The man opened one of the back doors of the car and began searching my things for my camera; the woman yelled and gesticulated while rifling through the stuff on my passenger seat.

To his credit, the one-eyed man began to explain how protesters had received threats and feared retaliation if photos were disseminated. I replied that I was from out of town and had no vested interests in his dispute.

I tried to explain that I would be happy to erase any images of him and his friends from my camera if they would just step back from my car.

But by the time I explained that, his colleagues had realized the camera was in the little cubbyhole under my elbow. The second man grabbed me by the throat and pulled me back so the woman could reach in and grab my camera.

"You just lost your camera!" she said, skipping back to the barricade.

My protestations that I was going to delete the pictures met with a gleeful smile.

"You snooze, you lose," she said.

The one-eyed man, though, offered me a deal. If I would show him my driver's licence and let him take down my personal information, they would return my camera, minus the pictures. Seeing little choice in the matter, I handed over my licence, hoping the occupiers weren't going to abscond with that, too.

In the end, the protesters returned my camera after deleting every picture, including the ones that had nothing to do with Caledonia. The woman let me off with a warning:

"If we see these pictures anywhere, we know where you live."

How I was going to do anything with the pictures they had deleted, I haven't the faintest.

In their five-minute encounter with me, the protesters had broken several laws -- interfering with traffic, assault, robbery and extortion among them. Throughout the incident, an OPP officer, perhaps 40 metres away, watched and did nothing. I suppose the one-eyed man was right when he said the protesters were operating with the sanction of the police.

Of course, my minor trauma is nothing compared to what the residents of Caledonia have been dealing with since the occupation of a housing-construction site began in February.

Vandals behind the barricades have destroyed a bridge and knocked out power for thousands of homes. Serious accidents have resulted from the diversion of vehicles onto side roads not suited for the traffic. Local businesses have lost thousands of dollars as customers elect not to run a gauntlet to go shopping.

Until the protesters removed a barrier on Argyle Street last week, people who lived on the road could only enter or leave their homes with the permission of the occupiers. They could not have visitors and were subject to an 11 p.m. curfew -- imposed by the protesters, not by any lawful authority. The local newspaper reported one Argyle Street youth has had to move away from home, since no school-bus driver dares to pick him up.

What is going on in Caledonia is not a noble struggle of members of an oppressed minority asserting their civil rights. This is not a 1960 sit-in at a Georgia Woolworth's lunch counter. This is a gang of militant thugs victimizing the law-abiding citizens of Haldimand County, emboldened by the timidity of a province and country paralyzed by political correctness and the fear that one of the occupiers might get hurt.

The Ontario government has responded to the crisis as if it was a teachers' strike, sending in David Peterson to negotiate. But the occupation is not a political dispute; it is a long-running criminal act.

We do not negotiate with bank robbers or drunk drivers. We arrest them and throw them in jail. If they resist? Well, that's why cops have handcuffs, nightsticks and tear-gas grenades.

I'm sure some readers still think the occupiers are the victims, automatically deserving of sympathy as people of colour fighting The Man. Those sympathizers should take note: The Six Nations radicals claim all land within six miles of the Grand River. That includes all of Waterloo, Kitchener and Cambridge. If the occupiers are able to get their way in Caledonia through violence and intimidation, you might wake up next year to find your street under occupation.

Matt Walcoff is a business reporter for The Record.
 
That's more like it.
For the assault on his girlfriend, Linklater was given a six-month sentence to be served in the community, mainly, the judge noted, because he's an aboriginal and his lengthy record is mostly for property offences. He was also banned from drinking or having a weapon.

Justice Harry LaForme, who is a Mississauga Indian and a highly regarded judge who was later promoted to the Court of Appeal, decided "to remedy the crises of drastic over-representation of aboriginal people in our penal institutions."

I recall hearing about this on talk radio. I wasn't aware the judge was also a native. This is obviously troubling. I'm not sure I understand how applying the law unevenly is a decent solution for "over-representation of aboriginal people" in prisons. In fact, the whole concept of over-representation is faulty. If all the aboriginals in prison are indeed guilty, then they are adequately represented. Their numbers in proportion to others should be irrelevant. I think we all agree that justice should not be based on demographics.

I wonder about what the article doesn't say - it seems fantastic to think that a judge would consider the solution to over-representation of aboriginals in prison to be simply not sending them there. ::) Did he have any other plan for this person's rehabilitation/punishment other than just not sending him to jail?
 
It was on TV as well.  In the segment I watched (I think it was CBC or CTV Newsnet) they talked about the knife attack on the previous girlfriend and then excerpted the judge's sentence and it was just stupifying that the judge believed that simply by releasing Linklater to go back to the reserve for aboriginal counciling and healing, that would solve everything.  The bottom line in the excerpt was that since Aboriginals were overrepresented in jails, he should just be let go.  In addition, the judge did not put in place any oversight or reporting conditions so Linklater never actually stayed in the community and immediately returned to Toronto where he then killed Miss Ivancicevic.

In short, this was a double-standard that got an innocent woman killed....


Matthew.  :salute:
 
Thanks for posting those; I gratefully stand corrected. I hope that the obvious double standard in this case is not as pervasive as might be othewise suggested.  I really do think as I stated earlier that there is a call for double standards in certain situations - ie land claims, at least as we have chosen to pursue those matters to the present.

This case warrants some disbelief - especially if this is simply a case of one native looking out for another based on their race. I don't imagine the judge has had anything to say to attempt to exonerate himself? I'd like to know if his job is in serious jeopardy as a result, and if not, why not.
 
Bobbyoreo said:
If you cant see the double standard, yours eyes ain't open!

And if you can't see, in general terms, the imperative to treat different people differently under the law, then I would humbly submit that neither are yours. Or put a better way, our eyes may be open, but not all that can be viewed is out in the open to be seen.
 
Double standard here, bigtime!

Based on what, and why?

You tell me!

At the end of the day, I can safely say that Ahenekew is an embarrasment to Canada and to his native heritage. That judge should be ashamed. This is a classic example of what a joke our justice system is, and those who run it.

I am sure many Canadians have been 'put off' by his comments regardless of their race or religion.

Opinions are like ring pieces, and being a public figure, he should keep his personal ones to himself should he feel that way inclined about the death of over 6 million human beings.

Simply put, he should have known better.

And to think about 45,000 Canadians (including our first nations men) gave their lives fighting Hitler and his ideals, and to stop such carnage from reaching our shores. If Germany would have won the war, where would his own people be right now? You don't gotta be a rocket scientist to figure that out, do ya!


My two cents anyways.

Wes
 
No I'm good. I realise that some people need to be treated differently but when it comes to laws and how we talk in public  about different races and backgrounds I think we all stand on the same ground.
 
Or we SHOULD all stand on the same ground.  I am not sure this is the case WRT the case in this post, and I am not sure why, but this may be a bad precedant to make.  IMHO.

Mud
 
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