The David Ahenakew Thread- Merged

[George Wallace]

Or decomposing in the ground. Its quicker and it can be considered recyclying (for all the left wing hippy types)!

That would be called "fertilizer".

 

[vonGarvin]

She's stepping down
(shared in accordance with the applicable act)
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2006/07/28/boniface.html
The commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police is leaving the force for a policing job in Ireland, amid criticism for the way she handled a native occupation of a disputed housing development in Caledonia.
Gwen Boniface joined the OPP in 1977 and in 1998 became the first woman commissioner of the provincial force.
She will take official leave in October to join a newly established three-person panel that will oversee Ireland's 13,000-member National Police Force, Ontario Community Safety Minister Monte Kwinter said Friday.
The announcement of Boniface's departure comes about five months after aboriginal protesters began occupying the Caledonia construction site, maintaining that the land is part of a land grant from the late 1700s.
The provincial and federal governments have maintained the land was later surrendered.
Kwinter told CBC News that Boniface's departure has nothing to do with the Caledonia standoff.
He said Boniface was made an offer she couldn't refuse, and added her decision was both a personal and professional one.
But MPP Bob Runciman, a former provincial solicitor general, said the timing is suspect.
"It may be in some way shape or form linked to what's happened with the Caledonia occupation situation for the past months, and the non-confidence motions in her leadership which several elements of the Ontario Provincial Police Association have been carrying out," Runciman told CBC.
Runciman said he doesn't know the outcome of the non-confidence votes, but said they had in fact taken place.
Commissioner under fire

Critics say OPP, under Boniface, treated native protesters differently during the sometimes-violent dispute.
In fact, some Caledonia residents began circulating an internet petition earlier this month calling for her resignation.
The petition said Boniface allegedly failed to protect the people of Caledonia as well as the town's power station, bridges, roads and homes during the protest.
But in a statement earlier this month, Boniface said she is proud of her force, and dismissed accusations that her officers treated aboriginals differently.
"I think the right decisions have been made and they've been carried out by competent men and women in the OPP," she said.
There will be a Canada-wide search for Boniface's replacement as commissioner.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I think I have a target balloon here, that would be an improvement at this point in time.  ;D

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I'm just wondering what the Irish did that was so bad.  ???

I think I'm gonna be the first to go get a Leprechaun status card and go start making land grabs now.  I'll claim that it's an ancient gold burial ground, and the Irish oppressors are "always after me lucky charms".  Of course, that land will just happen to be on the estate of a huge Irish castle. 
Hey, don't laugh at me!!  My people have passed down this land by word of mouth for thousands of years.  Who are you to tell me that another Leprechaun didn't tell me about it  :threat:
Here, I have a photo of the ceremonial chamber where the map to the treasure is kept.  And I'll fight to the death to defend it!

 

[GAP]

I'm just wondering what the Irish did that was so bad.   ???

It's kinda like good cheer, even this stuff, you have to spread around a little bit...dilute the waters, so to speak 

pssst.....We used that map...didn't find anything, but hey.... :

 

[zipperhead_cop]

It's kinda like good cheer, even this stuff, you have to spread around a little bit...dilute the waters, so to speak 

pssst.....We used that map...didn't find anything, but hey.... :

The O-dots I know are thrilled to see Aunt Gwen go, but there isn't a big bright torch being held out for her replacement.  Recall we still are stuck with a Lieberal government here in Ontario. 

And obviously you didn't find the treasure.  You didn't have the ruby encrusted moccasins.  Duh. 

 

[GAP]

The O-dots I know are thrilled to see Aunt Gwen go, but there isn't a big bright torch being held out for her replacement.  Recall we still are stuck with a Lieberal government here in Ontario. 

my sympathies...but then again...we have NDP government without the Layton effect.  ;D

And obviously you didn't find the treasure.  You didn't have the ruby encrusted moccasins.  Duh. 

Oh, your really needed those? No wonder  ???

 

[rmacqueen]

Unfortunately, we are seeing the effects of Ipperwash here.  What cop in their right mind would run the risk of destroying their career by actually enforcing the laws during a native occupation?  The second guessing of police actions when dealing with natives has destroyed any chance of the police doing anything.  If they do nothing they are critisised but if they actually act then they risk their very livelyhood being taken away.

As for the laws being applied equally, in the case of the 17 alleged terrorists who were arrested, the leader was reported by a federal MP for saying "Canadian troops were (in Afghanistan) to rape Muslim women," and nothing was done.  What do you think?

 

[The_Falcon]

Na na na nah, Na na na nah, Hey Heeey GOODBYE!!!

As for the laws being applied equally, in the case of the 17 alleged terrorists who were arrested, the leader was reported by a federal MP for saying "Canadian troops were (in Afghanistan) to rape Muslim women," and nothing was done.  What do you think?

That kind of a statement wouldn't surprise me however, I still think it is suspect.  Do you have a source/link, you could provide to substansiate it?

 

[rmacqueen]

Na na na nah, Na na na nah, Hey Heeey GOODBYE!!!
[/b]

That kind of a statement wouldn't surprise me however, I still think it is suspect.  Do you have a source/link, you could provide to substansiate it?

Look under Qayyum Abdul Jamal at http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060605/terror_suspects_060605/20060605

 

[The_Falcon]

My bad I misread your statement and the article, I thought the MP had made that statement concerning the CF.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

and the soap-opera continues...

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20060809%2fcaledonia_ruling_060809&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True

Ontario to appeal ruling on Caledonia standoff
09/08/2006 6:08:14 PM 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ontario will appeal a Superior Court judge's order to end negotiations in a five-month long standoff over a land dispute in Caledonia, Ont.


CTV.ca News Staff

Tensions ramped up Tuesday as aboriginal protesters continued their occupation of the housing development. 

Attorney General Michael Bryant said Wednesday that the province will argue the court has no jurisdiction to end talks aimed at resolving a native land occupation on the Douglas Creek Estates site near Caledonia.

"One of the grounds of the appeal will be that the courts have no jurisdiction to order the parties to cease negotiations, which we will argue (are) in the public interest and the best way to resolve this dispute," Bryant told reporters.

Bryant said both the province and federal governments are in agreement on the appeal, and they believe negotiations are the best way to resolve the outstanding land claim.

He says the appeal could take weeks, but the government will act as "expeditiously as possible."

Federal Indian Affairs Minister Jim Prentice said Ottawa supports the appeal as well as "getting back to the negotiating table."

"And as Ontario moves forward with the stay application, and the appeal, we're anxious to get all our negotiators back to the table so we can get this resolved," Prentice told CTV Newsnet.

Tensions arose Tuesday as aboriginal protesters continued their occupation of the housing development after Superior Court Justice David Marshall ordered negotiations to end until the rule of law is upheld and protesters left the site.

In spite of the appeal, Bryant said the province will halt negotiations until the Ontario Court of Appeal either overturns the judge's ruling, or orders a stay pending appeal.

"The reasons for judgment do appear to be clear," Bryant said. "We will comply with that order until such time as the order is either stayed, or suspended, or overturned."

Many are blaming Judge Marshall's ruling for increasing tension in the town.

Protesters and hundreds of Caledonia residents faced each other in a tense standoff that was dispersed by police early Wednesday.

There was no violence, but both groups hurled insults at each other. At one point, First Nations protesters sprayed some residents with water using a fire hose.

The Ontario Provincial Police moved extra police cruisers into the area Wednesday in an effort to keep things calm.

"Certainly everyone is just a little cautious today. There is an air of tension here ... and everyone is appealing for calm but still you get the feeling that everyone's on edge," said CTV Kitchener reporter David Imrie.

"Back in the neighbourhood where the OPP have set up a new sort of perimeter, what (the protesters) are doing there, according to one officer, is restricting traffic through the area where the houses border on the housing development on the disputed land. And they are trying to keep non-residents from moving through that area."

However, the protesters did not blockade the road through the town -- a move that had previously created much friction between protesters and Caledonia residents.

"We did close off the front entrance (of the development) ... it's just a safety issue," Janie Jamieson, a Six Nations spokesperson, told The Canadian Press Tuesday night.

She said that barrier was set up after "a drunken non-native from Caledonia approached me and grabbed a hold of me and assaulted me twice."

Fragile situation

Former Ontario premier David Peterson, who was appointed by the province to begin negotiations in the dispute, said the order has upset "a very fragile situation."

"It's been a very volatile and tender situation," said Peterson. "My biggest concern is that . . . some strange accident could happen.''

Peterson is no longer involved in the negotiations. He said he couldn't understand how Marshall could "stop people from talking."

Marshall issued a court order in March for police to evict the protesters and for the barricades on nearby railway tracks to be lifted.

Lawyers for the Ministry of the Attorney General have argued that Marshall's orders have been enforced, pointing out that police laid 53 charges against 28 people.

Marshall took the rare step of calling representatives from the province, police and aboriginals into court to explain their actions.

The Douglas Creek Estates site is at the centre of a battle over land rights that began when Six Nations protesters set up barricades blocking the road into the development in February, saying the land was illegally taken from them 200 years ago.

A court order evicting them has not been enforced.

"It is a difficult dispute and we feel for the residents," said Prentice.

"This dispute is one of the oldest and most protracted land claim issues in Canada. It actually goes back to the days after the American Revolution and the First Nations, the Iroquois and Mohawk, feel very strongly about the promises that were made to them."

In June, the province bought out the developer for $12.3 million, but the land remains held in trust by the province.

With files from The Canadian Press

 

[zipperhead_cop]

It will be interesting to see what Jay Hope has to say about all this and how he handles it.  Hopefully he will go all "Queens Park" on them, but I doubt it. 

 

[FastEddy]

It will be interesting to see what Jay Hope has to say about all this and how he handles it.  Hopefully he will go all "Queens Park" on them, but I doubt it. 

I don't know about you, but every time I read the title of this tread, I don't know whether to "LAUGH or CRY".

Cheers.

 

[a_majoor]

We will reap what is sowed:

http://www.stevejanke.com/archives/190209.php

The problem is that a propensity for violence is exactly what requires a firm response. Violence by any other group other than the State strikes at the heart of what defines the State. The core definition of the State is that it is the sole entity that can use violence as a way of imposing its will. The rest of us do not indulge in personal revenge when we are wronged. Instead, we go to the State with our complaint, and when the State decides it is necessary, uses violence on our behalf to rectify the situation.

We call it the court system.

That's what Justice David Marshall is on about. He can't say it in such stark terms for fear of delicate media types having an attack of the vapours, but he knows that if the courts demand a violent reaction to a challenge to State power, the lack of such a reaction is not just embarrassing. It calls into question the legitimacy of the State itself.

This is heavy stuff, I know. But this has always been at the centre of this conflict. The "propensity for violence" exhibited by the Mohawk Warriors and others is not an unfortunate side issue. It is the central issue. Not a land claim. The land claim constitutes the side show in all this.

The State (in this case, the Province of Ontario under Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty) has so far allowed another entity to use violence to impose its will independently of the will and control of the State within the borders of the State. You can't have two States sharing the same territory. One has to go, or the territory has to be broken into two pieces.

Actually, to give John Ibbitson credit, he recognizes this:

Now, there is every reason for a public debate on whether Ottawa and the Ontario government should confront the Mohawk Warriors and their allies, to reassert the rule of law and the monopoly of the state on the legitimate use of force.

If Caledonia is an insurrection, then the army is the proper instrument to suppress it. Since the Ontario government has no authority to call in the troops, Ottawa would have to take over.

But then he pulls back:

But today is not the day, and Caledonia is not the place.

It is possible to avoid violence. That is why federal, provincial and native negotiators have been at work on crafting a settlement. The principal negotiators are on an August break, but four side tables are continuing their work.

How wrong-headed is that: ordering governments not to seek a negotiated settlement to a tense situation until after the state has employed violence?

Unfortunately, using violence is not wrong-headed, it is brutally necessary. The message that has been sent in all this is that if the Mohawk Warriors and their kind employ a sufficiently high level of violence, the government will back down. The more violence, the more likely negotiations will go in their favour. Don't take a little bit of land, take a lot of land. Don't claim empty land, claim land that already has people on it. If you have a choice, choose the path that puts more people at risk for losing their homes and even their lives.

In Canada, such behaviour is rewarded, at least if Ibbitson has his way.

The irony in all this is that this really has nothing to do with land. I think it has everything to do with gambling. I think Ken Hill and his allies in the Mohawk Warriors are employing these tactics in order to achieve two goals.

First, it is to sideline opposition to his gambling plans within the band council by being seen as the architect of a major victory over the white man.

Second, it is to establish in practise the existence of a second State within the borders of Ontario. If the Natives successfully use violence to impose their will, they will have met the minimum standard for the definition of a State. Once that is done, and the governments of Ontario and Canada do nothing to prove that Native violence is ineffective in achieving Native aims, then the Natives will use that power to demand more and more -- more land, more casinos, more whatever. They will insist that the law does not apply to them, and that they don't care what limits or restrictions or prohibitions the law places on their goals. If the government balks, violence will erupt. Over and over again.

And John Ibbitson will say over and over again, today is not the day.

As for Ken Hill, he won't care. He'll have his casino and he'll be making his money.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060810.IBBITSON10/TPStory/TPNational/Ontario/

THE CALEDONIA STANDOFF

There is the principled rule of law, and then there is reality

JOHN IBBITSON

E-mail John Ibbitson | Read Bio | Latest Columns
Let's not let people get killed because of some judge.

Ontario Attorney-General Michael Bryant has decided to appeal the latest contempt-of-court ruling by Mr. Justice T. David Marshall that orders the eviction of native protesters from the disputed Caledonia lands and an end to all negotiations until the site has been cleared.

The Superior Court judge's ruling is incendiary and dangerous, and we can only hope that it is swiftly overturned at the Ontario Court of Appeal.

No one lightly disregards preservation of the rule of law. It is, as Judge Marshall said, "the pre-eminent condition of freedom and peace in a democratic society." He was right as well to say that "even a small tear in the cloth of our justice system spoils the whole fabric of society."

So the judge gets full marks for standing up for principle. But there is principle, and there is reality.

In Caledonia, militant natives have seized land to protest against what they see as the unwillingness of the federal government to settle their land claim. They have already demonstrated a propensity for violence. People close to the scene are absolutely convinced that, if the Ontario Provincial Police try to disperse the occupation, people will be killed or seriously hurt.

That would hardly be unprecedented. Similar attempts in the past have led to deaths at Oka and Ipperwash.

Now, there is every reason for a public debate on whether Ottawa and the Ontario government should confront the Mohawk Warriors and their allies, to reassert the rule of law and the monopoly of the state on the legitimate use of force. But today is not the day, and Caledonia is not the place.

If the provincial government, which has immediate responsibility for managing the crisis, decides to go in and bust some heads in Caledonia, then it would be wrong to ask the OPP to wield the truncheons. The occupiers are entrenched and determined. The police officers would be put at serious risk.

If Caledonia is an insurrection, then the army is the proper instrument to suppress it. Since the Ontario government has no authority to call in the troops, Ottawa would have to take over.

So enforcing Judge Marshall's court order could involve the federal government's deploying troops to end the occupation and arrest the protesters, knowing in advance that people could well be killed. Judge Marshall knows this. That's why his ruling speaks to the importance of "the avoidance of violence if this is possible."

It is possible to avoid violence. That is why federal, provincial and native negotiators have been at work on crafting a settlement. The principal negotiators are on an August break, but four side tables are continuing their work. At least, they were. Judge Marshall has decided that the negotiations violate the sanctity of his rulings. He has ordered the talks suspended until the protesters have been dispersed.

How wrong-headed is that: ordering governments not to seek a negotiated settlement to a tense situation until after the state has employed violence?

Indian Affairs Minister Jim Prentice has vowed to streamline the land-claims process. If he succeeds, many of the fault lines between natives and the rest of Canadian society could gradually be erased.

And we do need some honest talk about whether and how federal and provincial governments should confront native activists who do not accept the legitimacy of the legal system under which the rest of us live. Is it time for the forces of law and order to take a stand? Should they take it even if violence escalates across the country? Is it worth lives?

But, in Caledonia today, men and women of goodwill on both sides are trying to craft a peaceful solution to a stalemate that has afflicted the community for months.

One judge has forbidden further talk, and ordered force. We can only hope a higher court stays his hand.

 

[Old Sweat]

The statement that the province has no authority to call in the troops is patently untrue. Under the Aid of the Civil Power regulations of the National Defence Act, a provincial attorney general has the authority to requisition military support from the Chief of the Defence Staff in the event of a real or potential insurrection. The CDS has no choice in the matter in that he must respond. However he is responsible for determining the level and extent of the response. As the saying goes, based on his assessment, he can send JTF2 or the Central Band. (The act is written this way to protect the CDS from legal actions if it is later determined that an insurrection did not occur.)

 

[Gunnar]

I rather like the idea of sending in the Central Band....maybe turn this farce into a musical!

;D

 

[zipperhead_cop]

As much as I would love to see the JTF go in and turn a bunch of asshats into pudding, I don't think that is a good idea on two fronts
a) The political will to confront natives is so weak, I would hate to see a quality unit get disbanded for some perceived slight, ala the Airborne Regiment.  Not an indictment of their abilities, conversely I think they would be too effective. 
b) If the OPP ever want to be able to do any credible policing in any area that deals with natives, they have to get this one done.  There is no reason that police could not get this thing sorted out, they just need a green light and a political back up.  Oh, and a heap of counter snipers along the high points in the area. 
Trying to pawn this off on the Fed is beyond pathetic.  I would love to see Dolton and whoever is running the puzzle palace in Orillia get jailed for contempt of court.

 

[paracowboy]

b) If the OPP ever want to be able to do any credible policing in any area that deals with natives, they have to get this one done.  There is no reason that police could not get this thing sorted out, they just need a green light and a political back up.  Oh, and a heap of counter snipers along the high points in the area. 
Trying to pawn this off on the Fed is beyond pathetic.  I would love to see Dolton and whoever is running the puzzle palace in Orillia get jailed for contempt of court.

true words.

 

[a_majoor]

More on the Judge trying to reestablish the rule of law in Caledonia:

http://www.stevejanke.com/archives/193095.php

According to an email being sent around, Ontario's Liberal government under Dalton McGuinty cannot appeal Justice David Marshall's order to suspend the negotiations with the natives occupying disputed land in Caledonia. That's because, if I understand this correctly, Justice Marshall worded his ruling as advice as opposed to a point of law. And this might have implications for the future.

Here's the email, apparently sent to Caledonia Mayor Marie Trainer:

"About 90 minutes ago, Judge Marshall, the Attorney General and a group of lawyers had a conference call. It was decided, based on secret meetings yesterday, that the Liberal Government does not have the option to appeal. The reason is there is no cause. The ruling says: 'should not' and not: 'cannot'. Now McGuinty is going to have to find out how to get the egg off his face!"

Consider what I think are the relevant portions of Justice Marshall's ruling:

The negotiations are important to the native people and everyone else and I appreciate that reality, but land claim negotiations by their very nature tend to be protracted. It is trite that justice delayed is justice denied.

It is fundamental in our society that all members of the public -- including the various levels of government should respect the lawful orders of the court.

Certainly government officials should not act deliberately in a way that would ignore the court's orders and hence depreciate the court and the rule of law in our society. To act otherwise, will be seen as acting in defiance of the court's order.

For that important reason, the government agents involved in these negotiations should, in deference to the court order, withdraw from these negotiations until the court's orders are respected and the rule of law returned and the barricades removed.

This is a delicate matter but it seems to me that the submission of Mr. Elliot has considerable merit.

He said, and used this metaphor, that the government had with respect "put the cart before the horse." Return to the Rule of Law should precede the negotations of the land claims.

In summary then, for all these reasons I have given, there will be an order that the finding of contempt of court issued by this court will be referred to the Attorney General of Ontario of carriage. The injunction issued in favour of Henco Ltd, is hereby dissolved atthe request of Henco. However, that order to dissolve will not take effect till this court's order for criminal content has been disposed of. Negotiation should cease till the Rule of Law returns and arricades come down.

Each time the word "should" is used. The thinking described in the email is that the court is not challenging the right of the Crown to negotiate. That would be a ruling subject to appeal, since of course the Crown would maintain it must haev te power to negotiate. But Justice Marshall is saying that in his opinion, the negotiations lack legitimacy when they take place in an environment in the Rule of Law has been suspended. That government shouldn't sign any agreements under these conditions because such an agreement might be challenged.

It is friendly advice more than an order.

But I think this paragraph matters even more:

The court has no intention to abandon this matter. The court will remain patient but seized of the matter until it is resolved for the reasons I have given.

I think Justice Marshall is saying in effect that he understands that the court can't really prevent the negotiations from taking place if the government insists on going forward. The Ontario Provincial Police have seen fit to follow the lead of the politicians and not the courts.

So the advice of the court will stand, essentially ignored. Why bother then? Because at some point, a settlement will be reached. The natives and the government will think the issue is passed. And then someone will challenge it.

How will they challenge the settlement? By pointing to Justice David Marshall's ruling, a ruling the Justice Marshall will patiently keep up-to-date, the ruling that says the settlement should never have happened.

The government will have to explain why they ignored such a clear warning concerning the legitimacy of a settlement reached under such circumstances and in defiance of this and other rulings. Whether it is a good settlement or not won't even factor into the argument.

Who might challenge the ruling?

Maybe the citizens of Caledonia figuring that their rights were ignored. Maybe Henco figuring they weren't fairly compensated after all.

Maybe, and perhaps most likely, another native faction figuring that they settled for too little or gave back too much in order to get the settlement. That would be ironic if they were to use Justice Marshall's ruling to back up their challenge, since Justice Marshall's ruling only came to happen because those same natives refused to obey his earlier rulings.

See what happens when laws are ignored? Lewis Carroll would not have imagined such a bizarre situation.