The "G Wagon" (Iltis replacment for Recce & the Reg Force)

[12alfa]

Fennek.......

OBSERVATION

The reconnaissance vehicle's observation system is the Rheinmetall Defence Electronics (formerly STN Atlas Elektronik) BAA which comprises a thermal imager, a CCD day vision camera and a laser rangefinder and is installed in a sensor head mounted on an extendable mast. The sensor head can be controlled in azimuth and elevation and raised to a height of 3.29m above ground i.e. 1.5m above the vehicle roof. For observation from a concealed position, the sensor head can be tripod-mounted at an exposed location for remote operation up to 40m from the vehicle.

The sensor head is operated by means of the control unit in the vehicle or via the removed control unit from the concealed position. A hybrid navigation system consisting of an inertial unit and global positioning system (GPS) permits accurate determination of the vehicle position and the north direction. Determination of target coordinates is achieved using the system's laser rangefinder and azimuth and elevation measuring equipment, together with the navigation system.

The forward position of the driver's seat gives the driver a field of view greater than 180 ° through the windscreen and side windows. The rearview camera mounted at the back of the vehicle and a monitor integrated in the driver's instrument panel allow rapid evasive manoeuvres to be carried out. The driver can use the cable winch to recover his own or another vehicle.

SELF-PROTECTION

The vehicle has add-on all-round protection against 7.62mm AP rounds. Add-on armour protection can be selected to suit mission requirements. The crew compartment is protected against anti-personnel mines. Nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) warfare protection is integrated in the crew compartment air-conditioning system. The infrared signature is minimised through special exhaust ducting. The powerpack compartment is fitted with a fire extinguishing and warning system, which can be automatically or manually triggered.

-Not a recce veh...................ok.

 

[George Wallace]

Like I said a SURVEILLANCE Vehicle.   Just as the Coyote is a Surveillance vehicle; not a Recce vehicle.

GW

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/puma/

For the info of R22eRKodiak and others. It is a 5.7 tonne APC  used by the Italians in mixed Troops with the Centauro.  4 Pumas and 2 Centauros to the Troop.  3 Troops to the Squadron plus a 4 Centauro Support Troop and 2 more Centauros in the HQ.  3-9 troopers on board depending on role. All around LIGHT armour protection with hatches.

Cheers.

 

[R22eRKodiak]

Yes, you do have to be careful about how manufacturers label their vehicles.  George Wallace is right.  The Coyote is labeled as a recce veh, but in reality is is a surv veh.  That is not to say that the Fennek does not have potential, but one must be careful and critical.

G.W.:  I agree with the Jr Rommel and windshield bit.  I've gotten quite a few contacts spotted because of that very reason.  Now, the GWAGEN is even more of a monstrosity when it comes to reflection.  The entire windshield is perfectly flat and is positively huge.  Not only does it glare on the outside, it glares ridiculously on the inside at night, which makes any form of night navigation very difficult and slower than before.  Yes I hear some of you saying 'SEE THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD GET YOUR BUTT IN THE GUNNER'S SEAT'.  But I think that much of this can be resolved by other means, which I will not get into here.

G.W., you also mention :

Ferrets, Foxes, Lynxs, Luchs, etc were designed for Recce.    Bare assed jeeps without windshields and roll bars are easy to hide and use and also worked well as Recce vehicles.  I think that you guys are getting too wound up around the axles about "Protection" to safely do the job.

You are absolutely right.  However, I think that we cannot ignore protection.  The vehicle should be modular, enabling it to be custom built in a short period of time to suit any environment and protective level required.  This might make an NBC defensive system impossible, but there already are none in the GWAGEN, so I am not particularly concerned.  We've all spent plenty of time in bunny suits and gas masks anyways ;D.  Although the modifications could take some time, I believe that they should be accomplishable with little manpower and maybe a crane like that which can be found on many EME support vehicles.  Picture something working along the same lines as a pickup truck's fiberglass box, except bullet and fragment proof (somewhere beyond level IIIA protection would be required.)  This would allow us to have a permanent main chassis whose core portion would be rugged and mine proof, while having a top part that could either be unarmoured, completely removed for desert-rat type operations (of which I am fond and believe can be very effective in the appropriate circumstances), or could be armoured as required.  The whole thing could be engineered (although I am by no means an engineer, I believe that this should be workable) to be quickly modifiable using the aforementionned techniques.  Using heavy duty nuts and bolts (or whatever -- make them out of the same type and gauge of stuff that we make the 20t clovises on the LAV IIIs -- that should be more than sufficient) the whole thing is affixed to the main chassis which is designed to support the additional weight off the bat, rather than modified to accomodate extra armour afterwards (as in the case of the GWAGEN uparmour kits).

This technique would ensure that the vehicle maintains a hull and suspension that is rigid and strong enough to support the added weight from the design phase onwards.  The engine could then be made sufficiently powerful to ensure that performance is maintained even at top weights.  If we even wanted to make it more of a brute, we could include armour upgrade packages to bolt onto the truck, or ERA, if we were in a frisky mood!

By making it modular, quickly and easily convertable, something I don't recall having seen before, I think we could have a nice tool for recce, for those of us that like to sit in the gunner OR the navigator's seat!

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/vehicles/landrover/

Ask and ye shall receive

DEMOUNTABLE ARMOURED SYSTEM (DAS)
This variant allows the installation of armoured panels and glass screens onto a GS vehicle. A standard vehicle can be transformed into an armoured personnel vehicle within 48 hours. The DAS offers protection against high-velocity assault rifles, and can also be combined with anti-personnel mine protection. The Defender DAS is also available in a permanently armoured condition.

RAPID DEPLOYMENT VEHICLE (RDV)
The RDV is a modular equipment and weapons platform based on the standard Tdi 90 or Tdi 110 GS. A tough, flexible and mobile platform it is suited to a wide variety of uses including peacekeeping support and humanitarian and refugee protection. The RDV also features a rollover protection frame with ring mount suitable for a range of grenade launchers. An RDV conversion can be fitted to a prepared base vehicle in (cut off here but IIRC I saw somewhere else that the RDV rig could be mounted by the crew in 4 hours).

Same company that did the RDV rig for the Brits Land Rover fitted a similar rig to Ford F350s for the Irish Army special forces.

 

[12alfa]

The Fennek comes in different mods, some have a roof mounted wpns. Seen vids of this veh, it's quiet, low, and has some protection. better than what we have( coyote), and better than what we r getting (G-wagon).

3 Nations have moved from their past recce afv's to the Fennek, they are quite happy with it and plan to buy more. Can't see any thing that we would want that this AFV does not give us.

True, it's not a open windshield down type of jeep, but I think we have move away from this form of recce.By the posts here some have not.

 

[HItorMiss]

Reading this so far has definitely shown the differences in philosophies between Infantry and Armour in reference to Mounted Recce.   Gents, you have no perfect solution.   Fennek is more of an Adm Veh in my opinion, designed mostly to protect the echelons and work in the Rear Area.   I doubt it would make a good Recce Vehicle for the same reasons I don't like to see the CC sit in the front of the GWagon or in any enclosed space for that matter.   Vision is important for him to do his job, but equally important is the ability for him to use his ears, which he can't do inside a cab.  

Another point, especially for Recce guys, is how often do you pick out the enemy by the glare off their Binos or the "Rommels" who like to wear their goggles on top of their helmets instead of covering their eyes?   How does that humongous windshield differ in any way from that?

Recce is a dangerous job.   Life expectancies are measured in seconds, not days or years.   In some cases, less protection will be your best protection.   Too much comfort inside an enclosed vehicle could be a bad thing.

Ferrets, Foxes, Lynxs, Luchs, etc were designed for Recce.     Bare assed jeeps without windshields and roll bars are easy to hide and use and also worked well as Recce vehicles.   I think that you guys are getting too wound up around the axles about "Protection" to safely do the job.

As for gunners in the Coyote doing part of the Crew Commanding, I would be against it in action, but encourage it in Training.   The Comd must maintain full control of his vehicle, but at the same time ensure that his crew are furthering their training and experience.   There will be times that the "Gunner Take Over" will come into play.   There will be times that the Comd will have to dismount, Bridge classifications come to mind, and times that the GIB will do.

I've rambled a bit, but hope that a few pertinent points were covered.

GW

I think the biggest source of disagreement here is that R22eRKodiak and myself are thinking in the sense of infantry trained Recce soldiers where in we are senior troops who spend 3 months or close to it on a course that covers an incredible amount of info on what to do and is expected from you as a recce patrolmen, we are taught every aspect of every postion in the patrol ( I myself had to convience a LT on my course that my plan to exil his platoon after an attack to an LZ with a high threat of snipers in the area was a sound one,I was imidiately at a disadvantgae because I am in some eyes "just a Cpl") True we are not as good at say high level co-ords but we have done them and with great skill, you say and are correct that many contacts come from ears. but are the CC's ears any better then my own? can I not spot the glare off of said goggles? It seems to me from working with Amoured Recce it's just a slot that troops rotate into(granted it's a coveted one) no course no extra training other then Surv op and the like so yes your right the CC in that case is the most experienced in the Recce role and as such does need to lead his troops much more hands on then  R22eRKodiak does in his vehicle.


Now if Iam wrong about the training of Amoured Recce please tell me Iam not trying to be in anyway high on myself because I have some high speed course, I'm just trying to state where I belive we are coming from here.

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.gcn.com/23_32/dodcomputing/27805-1.html

Maybe this is the answer to the "inside/outside, up or down" question.

By the way, should the infantry recce job be done in an open vehicle like the G-Wagen or a more rugged version of the LSVW like the Pinzgauer SOV while the armour gets something like the Fennek or makes do with the Coyote?