Swampbuggy
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Sorrry @HavokFour , missed your post when I was putting mine up.
TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)
- Thread starter Spencer100
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so the Nancy, The St. Lawrence, Haida, St. Roche would they work
PrairieFella
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Im partial to the War of 1812 scheme which was scrapped. Chateauguay, Lundy's Lane, etc. If we really want to get spicy wirh the Yanks we can have a "Washington"
Real talk though, what about "cool shit"? Lots of Warspites and Endeavours and Enterprises out there in the world, why not just make some stuff up? There had to be a first "City-class" or "Tribal-class", why not make a new naming scheme for a new generation?
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So that White name I guess is just too triggering?
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No more than HMCS CRAPEAU or GRENOUILLE and then have them only crewed by Francophones...
I'll retire to my popcorn now....
OldSolduer
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His Majesty’s Canadian Unterseeboot Barracuda
So came across this article, which if all true, explains more why he went with Germans over Korea.
Edit: Sorry. Here's some points
A few points:
1. It all started with Carney reading intelligence briefs giving all the details of the 51st State stuff.
eg. "In private phone conversations with Carney's predecessor, Justin Trudeau, Trump had threatened to scrap the 1908 agreement delineating their shared border. "I tear that up and your whole country unravels," Trump told Trudeau in one call, according to two people familiar with the matter."
eg. "Over dinner at Mar-a-Lago, Trudeau's envoys tried to dissuade Trump from absorbing their country. When one Trump aide pointed out Canada's 41 million people would lean Democrat, the president came up with a neat solution: just split the northern neighbor into two states, one red, the other blue."
"as Carney took charge in early 2025, he commissioned a sensitive review that he would discuss one-on-one with his closest aides, in his office or aboard the jet officially callsigned CanForce 1: How dependent was Canada on one particular country for its data storage, military hardware, payments processing and even food?"
Carney basically decided that our best hope of deterring the US and diversifying away from it was to get the Europeans involved using his personal connections to all sorts of senior EU figures: "His own staff struggled to keep up as he texted European leaders he'd known from the finance world, like Rothschild banker Emmanuel Macron, now France's president; onetime chairman of BlackRock's German subsidiary, Friedrich Merz, now German chancellor; and the European Investment Bank's Alexander Stubb, now Finland's president." He and Mark Rutte were on opposite sides of this debate initially, with Rutte pushing for appeasing Trump and flattering him, while Carney pushed for developing an alternative model of NATO based on a dense network of connections that wouldn't rely on any one country as an alternative from the start.
Carney initially got little buy in from anyone in Europe other than France. The UK was particularly unenthusiastic at first. He's still not getting much buy-in with Asian US allies, which is why he's focused on Europe right now (and this might have impacted the submarine decision).
At the end of 2025, Carney was coming close to a dead end:
"By the end of 2025, the U.S. had imposed steep tariffs on Canada, and trade talks were frozen, with Trump publicly offering a way Canada could avoid tariffs: "You become 51."
Canadian officials looked for support in Europe. But few leaders spoke out. The EU had its own trade deal with Trump by then, taking the crisis between two NATO allies as background noise."
But then Greenland happened.
Carney saw this as an opportunity to break through with Europeans, who were now fearing war with the US:
"Rutte was furiously messaging Trump, trying to save the alliance. Carney, meanwhile, was on CanForce 1—his team preferred to simply call it by the name of its European maker, the Airbus—to China, where he would ink a "new strategic partnership" with Xi Jinping."
"In his Beijing hotel suite, Carney watched the news from Greenland play out on the TV and debated with aides whether Trump's demands would outlast him and become U.S. policy. He was due to make a keynote address at the World Economic Forum in Davos—one day before Trump's own speech there—and wanted to frame it as a wake-up call. With his team, he workshopped lines they hoped would be like a bucket of ice water, including a slogan Carney had used before: "Nostalgia is not a strategy."
So, that's how the Davos speech came to be. And that finally started shaking the European leaders out of their attempts to appease Trump. Trump's people noticed what Carney was trying to accomplish:
"But Trump still had choice words for Carney, when he gave his speech that day. "Canada lives because of the United States," he said. "Remember that, Mark, the next time you make your statements."
This happened the next evening:
"The next evening, top EU leader António Costa brought nearly 30 heads of government into the European Council headquarters known as "The Space Egg," for what became an emotional, five-hour conversation about the U.S. that some called "therapy night." A tired EU diplomatic service official called Carney's National Security Council afterward to say the meeting had been a before-and-after moment in Europe's relationship with America."
Since then, the Europeans have basically been buying time (at least according to WSJ):
Their plan was evolving into a delicate, two-step maneuver. Rutte was leveraging his personal relationship with Trump to keep the U.S. engaged in NATO—for as long as possible. At the same time, the allies were trying to step back from a decades-old dependency on American technology, military power, and trade, without provoking Washington.
There's a lot of details of the concrete steps the Europeans have been taking in the article, both on the military and IT side, but I probably shouldn't quote more of the long article.
Regardless, this is basically when the EU and Canada start regularly doing planning meetings without the US to discuss their future. This covers collaborations of AI, Quantum Computing and food security, as well as efforts to get Canada into European programs (not just the European Defense Fund, but also Erasmus, the student-exchange program, Eurovision and other European programs).
So, Carney seems to have committed us to Europe even more than I'd expected, the lean in that direction (rather than towards Asia) is probably related to getting better buy-in to his ideas for ending US dependence there than among Western allies in Asia, and the whole thing seems to be a quite consistent strategy on his government's part to both deter the Americans by raising the costs of aggression against Canada and build an alternative to dependence on the US, rather than an ad hoc effort at diversification.
Some of this has been clear for a while, but I've never seen it spelled out with even half this many details (particularly behind the scenes details). It's certainly an interesting approach to dealing with Canada's bad hand, though it remains to be seen whether it will work out in the end.
Edit: Sorry. Here's some points
A few points:
1. It all started with Carney reading intelligence briefs giving all the details of the 51st State stuff.
eg. "In private phone conversations with Carney's predecessor, Justin Trudeau, Trump had threatened to scrap the 1908 agreement delineating their shared border. "I tear that up and your whole country unravels," Trump told Trudeau in one call, according to two people familiar with the matter."
eg. "Over dinner at Mar-a-Lago, Trudeau's envoys tried to dissuade Trump from absorbing their country. When one Trump aide pointed out Canada's 41 million people would lean Democrat, the president came up with a neat solution: just split the northern neighbor into two states, one red, the other blue."
"as Carney took charge in early 2025, he commissioned a sensitive review that he would discuss one-on-one with his closest aides, in his office or aboard the jet officially callsigned CanForce 1: How dependent was Canada on one particular country for its data storage, military hardware, payments processing and even food?"
Carney basically decided that our best hope of deterring the US and diversifying away from it was to get the Europeans involved using his personal connections to all sorts of senior EU figures: "His own staff struggled to keep up as he texted European leaders he'd known from the finance world, like Rothschild banker Emmanuel Macron, now France's president; onetime chairman of BlackRock's German subsidiary, Friedrich Merz, now German chancellor; and the European Investment Bank's Alexander Stubb, now Finland's president." He and Mark Rutte were on opposite sides of this debate initially, with Rutte pushing for appeasing Trump and flattering him, while Carney pushed for developing an alternative model of NATO based on a dense network of connections that wouldn't rely on any one country as an alternative from the start.
Carney initially got little buy in from anyone in Europe other than France. The UK was particularly unenthusiastic at first. He's still not getting much buy-in with Asian US allies, which is why he's focused on Europe right now (and this might have impacted the submarine decision).
At the end of 2025, Carney was coming close to a dead end:
"By the end of 2025, the U.S. had imposed steep tariffs on Canada, and trade talks were frozen, with Trump publicly offering a way Canada could avoid tariffs: "You become 51."
Canadian officials looked for support in Europe. But few leaders spoke out. The EU had its own trade deal with Trump by then, taking the crisis between two NATO allies as background noise."
But then Greenland happened.
Carney saw this as an opportunity to break through with Europeans, who were now fearing war with the US:
"Rutte was furiously messaging Trump, trying to save the alliance. Carney, meanwhile, was on CanForce 1—his team preferred to simply call it by the name of its European maker, the Airbus—to China, where he would ink a "new strategic partnership" with Xi Jinping."
"In his Beijing hotel suite, Carney watched the news from Greenland play out on the TV and debated with aides whether Trump's demands would outlast him and become U.S. policy. He was due to make a keynote address at the World Economic Forum in Davos—one day before Trump's own speech there—and wanted to frame it as a wake-up call. With his team, he workshopped lines they hoped would be like a bucket of ice water, including a slogan Carney had used before: "Nostalgia is not a strategy."
So, that's how the Davos speech came to be. And that finally started shaking the European leaders out of their attempts to appease Trump. Trump's people noticed what Carney was trying to accomplish:
"But Trump still had choice words for Carney, when he gave his speech that day. "Canada lives because of the United States," he said. "Remember that, Mark, the next time you make your statements."
This happened the next evening:
"The next evening, top EU leader António Costa brought nearly 30 heads of government into the European Council headquarters known as "The Space Egg," for what became an emotional, five-hour conversation about the U.S. that some called "therapy night." A tired EU diplomatic service official called Carney's National Security Council afterward to say the meeting had been a before-and-after moment in Europe's relationship with America."
Since then, the Europeans have basically been buying time (at least according to WSJ):
Their plan was evolving into a delicate, two-step maneuver. Rutte was leveraging his personal relationship with Trump to keep the U.S. engaged in NATO—for as long as possible. At the same time, the allies were trying to step back from a decades-old dependency on American technology, military power, and trade, without provoking Washington.
There's a lot of details of the concrete steps the Europeans have been taking in the article, both on the military and IT side, but I probably shouldn't quote more of the long article.
Regardless, this is basically when the EU and Canada start regularly doing planning meetings without the US to discuss their future. This covers collaborations of AI, Quantum Computing and food security, as well as efforts to get Canada into European programs (not just the European Defense Fund, but also Erasmus, the student-exchange program, Eurovision and other European programs).
So, Carney seems to have committed us to Europe even more than I'd expected, the lean in that direction (rather than towards Asia) is probably related to getting better buy-in to his ideas for ending US dependence there than among Western allies in Asia, and the whole thing seems to be a quite consistent strategy on his government's part to both deter the Americans by raising the costs of aggression against Canada and build an alternative to dependence on the US, rather than an ad hoc effort at diversification.
Some of this has been clear for a while, but I've never seen it spelled out with even half this many details (particularly behind the scenes details). It's certainly an interesting approach to dealing with Canada's bad hand, though it remains to be seen whether it will work out in the end.
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HavokFour
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Paywall!
Relevant article is Part 2, both are worth a read.
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IMHO it has looked to me that Carney was really the only national leader who, from the get-go, understood that caving to Trump and trying to stroke his ego was a road to failure. Starmer being the clearest example of that. Think back to when Trump started his bullying of Canada with his tariffs based on spurious lies, his 51st state nonsense and calling the PM “Governor” we all hoped the mother country would take a stand for us……instead Starmer just groveled to Trump to get a trade deal and lower tariffs and look where he is now. Bowing,groveling and trying to appease Trump by stroking his ego with compliments is a total waste of time.
daftandbarmy
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“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.”
― Winston S. Churchill
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Still paywalled.Relevant article is Part 2, both are worth a read.
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Thatcher would have told Trump to get stuffed.
PrairieFella
Army.ca Veteran
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Kinda interesting to see that Carney was a Churchillesque figure in the sense that he was on the outside looking in on the global stage trying to warn people what was actually going on. I think history will be kind to him in that regard.
lenaitch
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The same guy who quipped "I wore a red tie for you" and apologized for a very accurate commercial depicting US hypocrisy?
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