"Trading Saber for Stealth" or "Are We a One Trick Pony?"

[George Wallace]

The only people who think our old orgs were too inflexible are the people who never had a chance to actually BE in them.

Every generation has to invent it's own terminology, but we don't have to flush our doctrine and ORBATs down the toilet every time some savage stops to change magazines.

Tom

Probably the most important statement I have seen regarding Recce in this Topic and many others in this Forum.

Thanks Tom.

 

[a_majoor]

It looks like the "Mud recce" faction has prevailed, the vehicles being considered as part of the "LARV" program are more "Stealth" than "Sabre". http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-vehlarv.htm

I would hope the program office expands the net a bit further, there are plenty of vehicles in that size range such as the OTOCAR Cobra or the M-1117, as well as some small Armoured Patrol Vehicles like the Force Protection "Lion" (although there would be issues with cross country mobility due to the extra weight).

 

[DG-41]

I'm about 2/3rds of the way through "Generation Kill" and I'm astounded that:

1) The Yanks took their elite dismounted recon marines (1 Recon Btn) and threw them into an ad-hoc, Canadian-style mounted light recce regiment (open-top HUMMVs) with almost no additional training

2) They then used them, in Canadian fashion, as the tip of the spear - save they are much more agressive than Canadian doctrine would call for.

3)  It seems to have worked!

I think I want a couple of Mk19s now....

DG

 

[ArmyRick]

Generation Kill is a good read. It gives you an idea on how they took the recce in Humvee concept (more like a maneuver force) and got away with it.  But you will notice a mention later on that praises the LAv25 because of its chain gun and TI sights.

 

[DG-41]

Yup, finished it last night.

The Iraqis supposedly called the LAV the "Great Destroyer" or something like that.

I'm shocked and amazed (and a little horrified) at the tactic of sending a HUMMV-based recce troop flying into a built-up area, shooting up everything in sight. I'm shocked at the collateral damage that was seen as acceptable, and I'm shocked that they totally got away with it in terms of both human and vehicle casualties. One guy shot through the foot, one guy shot in the arm, and that was about it - they take more damage from a mine strike towards the end than they ever do on those crazy Rambo shoot-em-ups.

I can't help but think that had they been a little better trained on the vehicle and vehicle tactics, they could have done the same mission with a lot less wanton destruction...

But none the less, they did good old fashioned "recce by death" and nobody died. That has to somewhat validate the concept.

One formation I've been toying with (based on a JANUS ex and some puttering around with some other sims) is an 8-car troop based on 3 X GW C&R patrols (A, C, E) and a mastless Coyote patrol (HQ) Working out the drills and tactics with it on paper/in the sims, it seems to work - you have the lighter-footprint, lower-observable vehicles forward, but you also have a pair of LAVs right there ready to intervene should their support be necessary.

It also has the added benefits of having a much smaller footprint than an all-LAV troop.

DG

 

[Fishbone Jones]

One formation I've been toying with (based on a JANUS ex and some puttering around with some other sims) is an 8-car troop based on 3 X GW C&R patrols (A, C, E) and a mastless Coyote patrol (HQ) Working out the drills and tactics with it on paper/in the sims, it seems to work - you have the lighter-footprint, lower-observable vehicles forward, but you also have a pair of LAVs right there ready to intervene should their support be necessary.

It also has the added benefits of having a much smaller footprint than an all-LAV troop.

DG

Go dig out the papers from the early 70's. Your talking the old 'Light Armoured' role we used in 'B' Sqn 8CH. 5 x lynx and 2 x APC, where the APC acted as a DFSV. We've already done it. Seemed to work ok, but it was a long time ago for me, and I sometimes have trouble remembering last week

 

[DG-41]

What was the APC carrying to make it a more effective DFSV vehicle than the Lynx?

I'd think that Lynx, carrying similar armour and armament, plus being able to fire the 50 hatches down, would make a better firing platform.

I find your ideas intringing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter - tell me more.

DG

 

[Lance Wiebe]

I remember those days of the DFSV.  You have to recall that we, at the time, were very seriously considering buying the Scorpion.  As a matter of fact, a request for proposal had gone out.  The Scorpion was not to replace the lynx, but to augment it.  Hence us practicing the drills with 5 Lynx and two APC's pretending to be a DFSV. 

Actually, it worked, and worked well.  We all liked the idea of conducting recce, and having a bit of firepower to back us up when we were conducting our drills.  But then we tried renaging on the Scorpion deal.....and got stuck with the turrets......which we mounted on a six wheel chassis offered by GM....and the rest is history.

 

[DG-41]

Ah, seen.

Well then, it seems that everything old is new again.

So how do we make it doctrine?

DG

 

[TCBF]

"Go dig out the papers from the early 70's. Your talking the old 'Light Armoured' role we used in 'B' Sqn 8CH. 5 x lynx and 2 x APC, where the APC acted as a DFSV. We've already done it."

- CFP 305(2) ARMOUR, VOLUME 2 , LIGHT ARMOURED REGIMENT, 18 February 1972

"107  General
1.  The light armoured regiment consists of a regimental headquarters, a headquarters squadron and three identical light armoured squadrons."

Notes to figure 1-1 "(1) This is a basic organization designed for war.  Composition may vary depending on policy, roles, equipment or the field force of which the light armoured regiment is a part."

"5. Light Armoured Squadron.  It's F echelon consists of a squadron headquarters, three scout troops, an assault troop and a mortar troop."

note that a few of the callsigns in the book do not match those in use in the mid 70s, or today.

SHQ:
2A    CP1- Ops O
2B    CP2- Sgt Cbt Int
29    Lynx- OC's rover.
29B  Lxnx- LO
29E  Dozer APC- Cpl
29C spare c/s, no veh

Scout Troop (X3)
21    Lxnx- Troop Leader with Radiac Gamma survey and NAVAID.
Scout Patrol:
21A  Lynx- Warrant Officer  GSR (short range)
21B  Lynx- Sergeant
Scout Patrol:
21C  Lynx- Sergeant with Radiac Gamma survey and GSR (short range)
21D  Lynx- Sergeant or Corporal
Direct Fire Support Section:
21E  (DFSV)- Sergeant
21F  (DFSV)- Sergeant

Assault Troop
24    Tp HQ APC- Troop Leader with Radiac Gamma survey and demolition stores
24A  Section APC- Warrant Officer with NAVAID and power saw.
24B  Section APC- Sergeant with power saw.
24C  Section APC- Sergeant with power saw.

Mortar Troop
25      Lynx- Warrant Officer (Tp Ldr)
25A    Mortar Carrier APC- Sergeant
25B    Mortar Carrier APC- Sergeant

29A  Administration Troop
21/4 Ton (jeep)- Sqn 2i/c
29D    APC- SSM
26      1 1/4 Ton (CP)- Ech Con
26A    2 1/2 Ton- Supply
27      APC-Amb
28      APC-Recovery
28A    APC-Fitters
28B    APC-Fitters

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thx Tom! My memory isn't as clouded as I thought!! ;D

 

[scoutfinch]

I am not meaning to split hairs or pick flyshit from pepper as much as I am challenging my own recollection of the subject matter but wasn't D Squadron 8CH the recce squadron, not B ?  ??? ???

Obviously, I stand to be corrected if need be.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In th

I am not meaning to split hairs or pick flyshit from pepper as much as I am challenging my own recollection of the subject matter but wasn't D Squadron 8CH the recce squadron, not B ?  ??? ???

Obviously, I stand to be corrected if need be.

In the 70's, when they were in Pet, A Sqn was Ferret S/C (recce) and B Sqn was track (light arm'd/ recce w/ Lynx & APC), C Sqn was in the G'spot, IIRC. Don't recollect a D Sqn, unless that was the Reserve Unit in NB.

 

[scoutfinch]

You know what they say -- the mind is the first thing that goes! ;D

I was in Petawawa in 86-87 just before the 8CH went to Lahr.  My ex-husband was B squadron and I didn't think he was recce.  He was recce in Lahr and I was pretty sure that D Sqn was recce there (with Lynx, I believe???).

But to be honest, that was a lifetime ago and I have obviously misplaced my memory chip from that time of my life! 

Thanks for clarifying for me.

 

[TCBF]

"107  General
1.   The light armoured regiment consists of a regimental headquarters, a headquarters squadron and three identical light armoured squadrons."

So, all three were light armour, but once THAT particular fad had passed - and with the tanks still mostly laid up - the light armoured regiments converted to recce regiments, sometime in the early seventies.  The Strats were orged a bit different, but in Pet the Hussars had:

SHQ
A Sqn in Ferrets
B Sqn in Lynx (Tp Ldrs had APC for the AN/PPS-515, switched to Lynx in 78 or so).
C Sqn was TQ3 Trg Sqn and provided 'Six-Nix' Regtl Recce Tp on Ex.
HQ Sqn

In 78, in response to buying the Leopard C1, the Ferrets were retired, the regiments became 'armoured regiments' , A, B, and C were slated for Cougars (first four delivered to the 8 CH(PL) in Jan 1980), and D Sqn was the Bde Recce Sqn.  In late 78 or early 79, D sqn was saved for the fourth Cougar/Tank Sqn in a regt (as that was our doctrine: four tank sqns of 19 tks plus two in RHQ equals 79 tanks, 51 officers 802 men, NOT counting the 7 officers 249 men in the Bde Recce Sqn) , and the Bde Recce Sqn changed from D Sqn 8CH(PL) to  Recce Sqn 8CH(PL).  And thus it stayed, until we became Recce Regts again, except for the LdSH(RC).  

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Obviously, Tom's mind hasn't gone to the mush mine has.

 

[DG-41]

I found an aide-memoire:

http://www.armouredacorn.com/Orbats/Canadian/8CH-Aug75-reds.pdf

DG

 

[Journeyman]

OK now, if my memory hasn't turned to mush.....when we were converting from Centurions to Leopards in Gagetown ('78-'79), as flyover sqn, we were B Sqn/8CH for about 6 months before changing to C Sqn/RCD to align with the Regiment then in Lahr. Does that sound right?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That's the time I gave up on changes in the Corps and became a 'bluejob' (ended up not liking that either and went back to the Corp) ;D

 

[Lance Wiebe]

We (8CH) were on exercise in 78, when over the radio came the message "All stations 2, this is 29.  You are now all staions 4.  Out"

And then someone starting singing "Happy Birthday" over the net.........