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"Trading Saber for Stealth" or "Are We a One Trick Pony?"

"We (8CH) were on exercise in 78, when over the radio came the message "All stations 2, this is 29.  You are now all staions 4.  Out"

And then someone starting singing "Happy Birthday" over the net.........
"

-Who ever thought we would grow up so fast?

;D

Tom
 
A link to an article outlining the use of the LRAS3 system by American forces. Since in most "scout" platoons this is mounted on HMMVW's, it is an interesting forcast of what a "Mud Recce" vehicle might look like and operate in our own future. Of course the advantages a vehicle and crew equipped with the LRAS3 system only exist where there are long sight lines, so there is always the need to retain the traditional skills.

The article is a sort of "best case scenario" where "Stealth" in the form of an LRAS3 equipped HMMVW could operate fairly freely, and with lots of air, artillery and supporting vehicle unit firepower close by. Depending on the size, weight and form factor of this thing, it seems to be a good fit to our own Coyote (especially if it can be placed on the mast and used without long set-up and take down times), with the advantage the Coyote crew can take limited action of their own if really needed.

http://www.knox.army.mil/armormag/currentissues/cameronindex/2stawowczyk04.pdf
 
A while ago I believe the tank was no longer useful for the Canadian Army, but after learning of the after action reports of Operation Medusa and recent US operations in Afghanistan I was awakened to my wrong assumptions. The tank is indeed a necessity of modern warfare at all levels, though it is not required on all operations in mass numbers.

I believe the regular Canadian Army armoured regiments should be reorganized as cavalry regiments. The Canadian Army should operate 3 amoured cavalry regiments each composed of 3 cavalry squadrons, 1 tank squadron, and 1 regimental headquarter and headquarters regiment.

Each Cavalry squadron should be composed of 3 reconnaissance squadrons of 4 LAC-CFV each, 1 assault squadron of 4 LAV-ICV each (a standard mechanized rifle platoon of armoured soldiers and officers), an anti-armour troop with 4 LAV-TUA, and a squadron headquarters and headquarters squadron. The latter will be equipped with a troop equipped with the equivalent of todays Coyote Surveillence vehicles.

Each tank squadron should consist of 4 four Leopard 2A5/A6AM tank troops and a 2 tank squadron headquarters and headquarters troop and associate heavy support vehicles.

The Canadian Army should also operate 3 independent brigade reconnaissance and survellience squadrons equipped with the equivalent surveillance capability provided by the Coyote surveillence and reconnaissance vehicle such that the Canadian Army has the equivalent of 4 squadrons of servellence.
vehicles.

This organization will provide the CF armoured units with a versatile and combat effective armoured capabilite that currenlty exists in a disorganised manner.
 
1) The Hummer is a great vehicle with outstanding cross-country mobility, but it was designed as a support vehicle and shoe-horned into the role of recon platform because the US Army armor branch has a terrible record of designing its own cavalry vehicles. The Sheridan and M114 come to mind, and their expense/limited usefulness were prime reasons why Fort Benning was designated as the lead for the IFV/CFV concept which ultimately led to the Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

2) Armored Cavalry is really the end-state of an army's doctrine of how the reconnaissance battle will be fought. In the US Army, the Corps heavy cavalry regiment fights the deep battle with supporting assets and slice elements from Army aviation, artillery and air forces. I mention the caveat "doctrinally" because there is only one true armored cavalry regiment left in the US Army, the 3rd ACR (Braves Rifles.) I would argue that the 3rd ACR is the world's most powerful armored force for its size and the ACR's have always been inofficially called "mini-armored divisions" because of their organic tube arty and aviation assets and for their heavy punch in combat power in the line squadrons.

3) Armies should be designed and formed to fight across a wide array of contingencies. By extension, the cavalry ought to be equipped and trained to carry out a variety of missions from peacekeeping to the heavy force battle. The issue with optronics/sensor packages to replace or heavily supplement the human element in the force carries huge weight. For instance, when the US Army replaced the Bradley with the Hummer in most cavalry units, I felt then, and I still do, that it was a step backwards in our warfighting ability. The Bradley was equipped with a 3 and 12 power ISU, two sets of binos and a spotting scope, PVS-4, and a couple of sets of PVS-7s/14's. Going back to the Hummer was a real step backwards in losing the sustained thermal capability and long range of the ISU.

The trouble with many of the emplaced sensors is that you don't have time to put them int he ground. We had a system in the scout platoons called the Platoon Early Warning System. It was these bags with spike sensors that you went out and stuck in the ground in dead space. There was a control box that you set-up in the CP and theoretically could detect movement from the ground sensors. In 10 years, I never saw a single instance where we actually emplaced PEWS either in Europe or stateside. In regards of your priority of work, you have to camo the vehicles, get the hot loop out, etc, etc. A lot of ya'll have been in armor so you know what I mean here. There just isn't enough time.

4) Cavalry has the broadest battle book of possible missions. It is tasked with fighting the covering force battle, conducting a significant piece of the deep battle, economy of force missions, the classic recon missions of zone/area and route recons, etc, etc. The choice of vehicles and the organic mix within the regiment/squadron are critical to whether or not the cavalry can successfully execute its mission. Does cavalry fight or does it observe and report? This is the essential question based on an army's doctrine that has to be answered. To my way of thinking, cavalry is a hard-hitting armored force with the radio and data nets to provide long range commo. Pushing the tanks forward, either op-conned or organic is the only way to go. When I was in a battalion scout platoon, we habitually worked with a tank section attached to our scout platoon and the tanks gave us a significant edge.
 
Red 6 said:
1) The Hummer is a great vehicle with outstanding cross-country mobility, but it was designed as a support vehicle and shoe-horned into the role of recon platform because the US Army armor branch has a terrible record of designing its own cavalry vehicles. The Sheridan and M114 come to mind, and their expense/limited usefulness were prime reasons why Fort Benning was designated as the lead for the IFV/CFV concept which ultimately led to the Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

Given the great breadth and depth of automotive engineering skills in the States, and the talent pool you have to draw from, I find it very strange that the United States hasn't created world beating "Cavalry" vehicles.
 
a_majoor said:
Given the great breadth and depth of automotive engineering skills in the States, and the talent pool you have to draw from, I find it very strange that the United States hasn't created world beating "Cavalry" vehicles.

Perhaps democracy tends to produce "camels" when "horses" are desired. 

New organizations succeed when there is "unity of command" - Stirling's SAS is an example that comes to mind.  Perhaps the same can be said of Gault and Strathcona. 

I don't think it is the technology.  It is the "committee" approach to decision making.  It might be argued that one of the reasons the US is still using Abrams and Bradleys is that they don't want to go through the aggravation of creating a new system.  Take a look at Paladin, Stryker and even the C130J.  It is far better to discard everything but the serial number on an old vehicle and rebuild it as new mark of an old idea than it is to try to create something new that everyone else either wants a piece of or wants to kill.

Kind of like the Communist Party of China.  ;)
 
Well You hit the nail right on the head Kirkhill. For some reason, the Armor Committee at Fort Knox never had much success in the recent past coming up with a decent cavalry platform. Who knows why, since the Armor Center can obviously come up with a war-winning MBT. Maybe because cavalry units perform so many varied tasks on the battlefield and the vehicles were asked to do too many things in too small of a vehicle. (Maybe not unlike the tank destroyer branch of World War II?)
 
Red 6 said:
Well You hit the nail right on the head Kirkhill. For some reason, the Armor Committee at Fort Knox never had much success in the recent past coming up with a decent cavalry platform. Who knows why, since the Armor Center can obviously come up with a war-winning MBT. Maybe because cavalry units perform so many varied tasks on the battlefield and the vehicles were asked to do too many things in too small of a vehicle. (Maybe not unlike the tank destroyer branch of World War II?)
The problem with trying to be all things to all people is that you end up pleasing no one.
BTW on the topic of TDs I always thought the M 18 would have made a superior Lt. tank for Cavalry units .
 
In the classic sense, cavalry in the US Army has always been a fighting force with plenty of firepower. In the Cold War, we in the Blackhorse trained for our line squadrons each to fight a Soviet combined arms regiment with organic assets during the first battle of WWIII. I'm sure some here will remember the Fulda Gap. My squadron had one gap to the south, which was the Meiningen Gap. My GDP position was on the north flank of our sector by Birx and we tied in on our left with 1st Squadron. My point here is that I don't think we could've carried out that mission with its implied tasks (i. e. hold until relieved, don't yield any ground, etc, etc) without a true combat vehicle in the cavalry role. The Bradley was a vehicle that could defeat enemy IFV's/soft-skinned vehicles, tanks and dismounts.

That's an interesting point you made about the Hellcat, GK. It was definitely a speedy vehicle with an outstanding cannon on it. Unfortunately, it was stuck in a doctrinal dilemma in regards to what the Army wanted the TD force to do on the battlefield.
 
I must say I did enjoy reading this, and for the most part agreed. He had some very well thought points and I think I understand what he is getting at. But ultimitly I'm sure some how there will always be people involved at some level.
 
Jim Storr questions the robust FRES UK Armoured Reconnaissance Platform.

https://www.tjomo.com/article/38/Manned_Armoured_Reconnaissance_Why_and_How/

Interesting little article.  Conclusion is that fighting for information eliminates surprise, and is thus a useless concept.  Fighting forces need small armoured vehicles or infantry patrols to collect information while maintaining stealth to gain surprise.  A vehicle with a big weapon will see said weapon used.  Fighting forces require guard forces to cover and guard but that these should not be misemployed scouts but rather combined arms forces drawn from manoeuvre arms.
 
Read the article, and while I respect a lot of what Storr has to say, given an asymetric battlefield with likely irregular forces proliferating who are working on their own turf, the element of stealth is something I don't think we'll achieve in such an operational environment.

Vehicle needs to be highly mobile, survivable against small arms/RPG, and capable of supressive fire in order to extricate itself, and ideally would have an anti-armor missile capability for self-defense reasons, not offensive.  Also needs to be capable of carrying a dismounted scout team.
 
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