University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) 2005 - 2018 [Merged]

[George Wallace]

The simple question first: You will not get paid at a higher rank level than you are.

Second: It depends on how you changed from Sgt to OCdt, as the rules are different in respect to "Vested Rights" in how you have changed Trades, etc.  That should have been laid out for you by the OR with the appropriate references to DAOD's, CFAO's, or QR&O's.  It would state on your message, what Pay Scale you will get.

My personal opinion, without full knowledge of your situation, nor Pay Background, is that you will keep your Sgt's Pay until such time that it will equal the Level of Officer's Rank Pay Scale that you have achieved.

 

[big_johnson1]

There is a huge issue going on with this right now.. I don't know if we're talking Reg or Reserve, and since I have no knowledge of how UTPNCM works for the reg guys, I'll leave it alone. What I do know is this: before, UTPNCM was not available to the reserve guys coming over to officer in the reg force. You took your cut in pay, down to OCdt level whatever (for me it was about $1250 a month gross), lost your rank and any leave entitlements etc etc. And of course you did this with a smile on your face because you were getting free education. A few intrepid individuals through the years decided that this wasn't right, that their reserve time should count the same as another person's reg time. Redresses went in, from my research they were all found for the grievor, and a load of backpay was issued. Someone up above took note of this and decided it wasn't right, and in 2005 ADM-HR(Mil) released Administrative Instruction 07/05, which basically means that from 2005 onwards if you join the regs as an officer from the NCM reserve world, you will be treated as a UTPNCM applicant. Details I'm not sure about but anyone who this matters to will look up the document and can read it for themselves. Anyone who joined in FY 06 is entered under the new rules, apparently applicants from FY 05 have been dealt with already (ie issuing back pay and pay rates based on prev service), and they are working backwards to FY 00 to deal with the rest of us. From what I've been told from a friend, once you get on the OCDT Pay level "D" scale, you don't go up in pay again until you get comissioned. He was a Sgt in the reserves, and with his previous service he got adjusted to a significant pay level with a load of backpay, after being dropped in rank to OCdt. This was determined from his previous service, basically adding up his class A/B/C time and working out what the reg equivalent would be.

I'm not a clerk and I have no RMS background, so take what I say with a grain of salt, especially since I'm giving second hand info. I think the reason there are 10 IPC levels to OCDT/D is so that they can cover all the possible rates of pay for UTPNCMs from privates up to sgts. I'm guessing the WOs and above are generally CFRs so they would go to their appropriate rank? Just a guess.

Anyways I hope that's not too confusing, I've been looking fairly deeply into this for the last year or so and I think I understand most of how it works. Again, don't take what I say as gospel, but this is what I've seen.

 

[Rhibwolf]

I'm not a clerk and I have no RMS background, so take what I say with a grain of salt, especially since I'm giving second hand info. I think the reason there are 10 IPC levels to OCDT/D is so that they can cover all the possible rates of pay for UTPNCMs from privates up to sgts. I'm guessing the WOs and above are generally CFRs so they would go to their appropriate rank?

Its been a while since I was a UT, and our pay issue was quite different than it is now, but this makes sense.  There was never any loss of pay, however, you just got stuck at your current NCM rate until you graduated, as there were no OCdts who made as much as Cpl.  My year got double pain, as we were all frozen in IPC for a few years afterwards, and I made 2888 for a long long time.  As for WO and above? we had plenty in the UT program.  Not all chiefs want to be commissioned without a degree. There are some who do it for the degree just as much for the rank.  Oddly, the most common reason I hear these days is "for the pension"  and not for the chance to be a Capt or Lt(N).  (just to waylay any questions on that, the pension is the same as everyone else's, but there is potential for the "best 5 yrs" to be higher in pay scale.)

 

[big_johnson1]

Well I'm on the list somewhere to get my backpay so once I've got first hand experience I'll post what happens to me.

 

[Jodie]

I was recently accepted into the UTPNCM program as a Land Logistics Officer.  My current unit can offer me no guidance on what happens after my change of appt to OCDT on 30 Apr.  I am trying to find out the official word on what cap badge I am authorized to wear, do I get the Log officer Cap badge or the Cornflake?


[Edit:  Gheeese!  If you are going officer, please learn to spell and ask a question.  Corrected your subject title to reflect your question.  No thanks necessary.  It is all part of the job.  ;D ]

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

Most of us (UTP's) put up our new cap badges instead of the cornflake. 

There was some flack at St.Jean two summers ago where they wanted the UTP's to wear the cornflake, but this seemed to have melted away by last summer. 

If you go with your new trade badge, the worst thing that can happen is they ask you to put on a cornflake once you're there if they've changed the policy again. 

 

[Tracker 23A]

I did UTPNCM, and I simply replaced my NCM capbadge with that of the officer cap badge from the moment I changed my TOS.  It was easy for me, since I remained in the infantry.  For those that are in a trade as an NCM/NCO and have been accepted as an officer to a new trade, I know everyone of the pers who were CFR'd/UTPNCM simply replaced their old trade capbadge with their new officer capbadge for that trade.  No one had any problems with that.

 

[Jodie]

Thanks, that's what I thought myself, but I couldn't seem to find any offcial word, and I have been getting various answers.  Any other advice with regards to UTPNCM, I am on my IAP the 28th of May.

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

The only advise I would offer is to go and have fun.  Well, as much fun as you can on an IAP....

Your first 4 weeks will be the whole indoctrination stuff all over again to get the new people into a military frame of mind so expect lots of death by powerpoint, and not much free time. 

The field is the field so you either love it, hate it, or tollerate it. 

Everything is pretty much spoon fed so sit back and enjoy the ride. 

Congrats, and good luck.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

this is right out of the book ( i had to look it up for myself) when a Offr is appointed from the ranks they are to wear the capbadge of the new branch less any regimental restrictions, ie Infantry waers the branch badge vice PPCIL/RCR ... Arty wears the gold plated one vice the cloth one and so on, each regiment has thier own rules on when the officer cap badge is worn but you should be fine putting up the log NCM cloth badge (or my other suggestion is head over to clothing stores and speak to one of the logo's there, they may have a better answer for your branch)

 

[Journeyman]

ie Infantry waers the branch badge vice PPCIL/RCR

*ahem* PPCLI    (I don't care how you choose to spell "wear")

As a "UT,"  I also wore my new classification cap badge from day one, since I had to get a green beret to put it on anyway. Mind you, I seldom wore it, since I managed to duck out of RMC (I found out years later many of my neighbours assumed I was SIU, since I lived in PMQs, but wore jeans/ball hats and skipped shaving periodically when going "to work")  ;D

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

My appologies on the dislexia, no intent to dishonour the regiment

 

[Journeyman]

My appologies apologies on the dislexia dyslexia, no intent to dishonour the regiment

;D

 

[vonGarvin]

When I did my UTPNCM stint in 95-99, I remained a member of The RCR; however, I retained the NCM capbadge for wear during BOTC and SLT.  At "home", I wore the officers' capbadge of The RCR.  During phase training in Gagetown, I wore the Infantry Corps' capbadge until graduation.  This info is a decade out of date, so take it for what it's worth.


PS: My beret is still green, always has been.  It has NOT darkened to "noir", in spite of my current position.  ;D
Also, why is "dyslexia" so hard to spell?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Also, why is "dyslexia" so hard to spell?

I believe that the general rule of thumb is that "if you can spell it, you ain't got it".

 

[PMedMoe]

I believe that the general rule of thumb is that "if you can spell it, you ain't got it".

I tried to spell it but I couldn't find it under "C" in the dictionary!! 

 

[SeaGully]

Although this has subject has been covered on this site in many different threads, I have a 'theoretical' question
that perhaps someone with a little bit of expertise can answer for me...btw, feel free to move this post to another area if needed..

Ok, here goes,  I know education is a BIG factor in one's success during their career in the CF.
I have read about CFR and UTPNCM
I am a little confused....I'm aware that to apply for utpncm one has to have been accepted to a university
and for a program that meets the CF's needs.
Now not having any formal education credits since highschool,(and that was a while ago)
will I not be able to apply since I do not possess any university credits?
Is it possible to take some correspondence credit courses and then apply?
to be CFR I'm aware one has to be stellar in their preformance and get a 'gold star' from their superiors
here's where I'm lost: if one cfr's, do they have to have a degree? also, am I right to assume that they would go through basic officer training?

somebody please let me know if this is a far fetched goal (ie, not in your dreams policy states...) or a realistic one.
THE GOAL:
to work in my trade, pass all training with flying colours and move up in ncm rank
after a few years (and by few I mean MS or PO2)
hope to cfr to Logistics Officer

is it possible to get a university education once in your trade
(specifically the navy, does one have time at sea to get an education?)
would i be granted leave for 4 or 3 years to get a degree?
how does that work out?


I will be speaking to an Officer tomorrow however i thought i would ask for the insight and advice of you great folks here at
army/navy/airforce.ca first
thanks

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

IOT help you out I need to know a wee more tidbit of information,  where are you in your carreer now?

 

[PMedMoe]

IOT help you out I need to know a wee more tidbit of information,   where are you in your carreer now?

According to his her profile, not even in the CF yet.

Edit for gender correction.  ;D

 

[aesop081]

THE GOAL:
to work in my trade, pass all training with flying colours and move up in ncm rank
after a few years (and by few I mean MS or PO2)
hope to cfr to Logistics Officer 

If you hope to CFR to LOG O, make sure you join on eof the Logistics trades. Alot of officer trades restrict where CFR candidates can come from. For example, CFR to Air navigator is restricted to NCMs from the AES Op trade.

Other programs such as UTPNCM or CEOTP work differently of course.