Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?

[Fishbone Jones]

Last time I heard, a Glock military/police contract price was $265 USD for a pistol with 5 mags. Sig actually under bid Glock to win the contract for the US Army. Both Glock G17 and the Sig M17 are excellent pistols and would be good choices for the military. The numbers we are interested in equal about a buy similar to a large US Police Force, so we won't have much pull on pricing. The US Army uses the M17 and the British the G17, so really the competition should ride on price and service support.
The sad part is the idiots will want to destroy all of our WWII Inglis made BHP Pistols. These would be worth a lot of money on the collectors market, likley the government could recoup anywhere from $100-200 for an issued pistol and double that for a mint unissued one. To destroy these pistols is criminal, not only do they represent some of Canada's finniest moments, but also part of the WWII generation investments that poured money into war bonds to produce them. Plus these pistols were mostly made by women that represent the true first wave of real feminism and breaking down of tradition job barriers.

Firms can afford to underbid a military contract in the US. Once the gun is picked for military use. Thousands get sold on the civilian market at inflated prices. Gun owners down there are almost religious at buying what the government uses.

I seem to recall it is government policy here not to release government surplus guns to the civilian market.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It is their policy and it's wrong, a utter waste of resources and harmful to history to do so.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I like the US Civilian Marksman Program. It'd be nice if we could have it here.

Home - Civilian Marksmanship Program

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[Good2Golf]

The current government has no interest in gun related history. Remember, the Trudeau Liberals intend to ban civilian ownership of handguns regionally, if not nationally, in the very near future. This would affect collectors.

And they get real quiet too when you point out to them that is was the Liberal government of the day that (sought out and) approved use of U.S.-supplied nuclear weapons.

#inconvenienttruths

 

[blacktriangle]

Will be there improved pistol training for the masses to go along with new pistols? Always seemed to be lacking in the CA itself.

 

[PuckChaser]

I would hope so. From what I've heard the Army has updated its drills and gone to more "workspace" IAs and drills from CANSOF lessons learned, so potentially a new pistol will mean being able to update 1950s drills and use the same workspace concept.

 

[CBH99]

Other than a basic qualification and some range time prior to deployment, I don't think I even touched a pistol during my time in the Army. It was mostly for show at COMREL events.

Between the C7, C6, C9, and various weapon systems found on LAV's and Leopards - I believe the reasoning was that if you find yourself relying on a BHP while deployed to the sandbox, you're probably as good as dead.


I'm sure naval boarding parties and MP's get adequate training & familiarization on their sidearms to be proficient with modern use, but the 'big green machine' was pretty lacking.

 

[Haggis]

I would hope so. From what I've heard the Army has updated its drills and gone to more "workspace" IAs and drills from CANSOF lessons learned, so potentially a new pistol will mean being able to update 1950s drills and use the same workspace concept.

The same drills that law enforcement and competitive shooters have been using for two decades.

 

[Jarnhamar]

IAs and drills from CANSOF lessons learned

We have a lot of brainwashed people who have a conniption at the idea of adopting intelligent and common sense based practices from CANSOF.

"we're not CANSOF" whether it's gun drills or wearing tan coloured gloves.

We also have leaders that think pistols are only for officers (to denote status) or office workers so they don't have to lug about a "heavy rifle". Getting off topic though.

 

[Weinie]

And they get real quiet too when you point out to them that is was the Liberal government of the day that (sought out and) approved use of U.S.-supplied nuclear weapons.

#inconvenienttruths

Ah, the good old days.

 

[PuckChaser]

The same drills that law enforcement and competitive shooters have been using for two decades.

It's almost like they're practical, simple and efficient... 3 tenets we steer clear of in the CAF unfortunately...

 

[dimsum]

We also have leaders that think pistols are only for officers (to denote status)

What is this, 1916?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Will be there improved pistol training for the masses to go along with new pistols? Always seemed to be lacking in the CA itself.

The pistol training in the 1980 was dismal. I tell people I can shoot pistol despite my army training, it really was the blind leading the blind. From what i have seen online, army pistol training has improved. IPSC and IDPA came about to teach police officers how to shoot and survive, IPSC has become very sports oriented and IDPA a bit more scenario based. Getting involved in either will hone your shooting skills significantly. If you get into reloading your firearm knowledge will go leaps and bounds over what the army teaches. It was people like Jeff Cooper and Jack Weaver that really pushed the improvement in firearms training in the late 20th century, that was later adopted by SWAT teams and SF units. Although some people say the discipline really started with Fairbairn–Sykes.

 

[Ostrozac]

What is this, 1916?

You’ve probably got to go even earlier than that. By 1916 the revolver was a standard issue item for Vickers machinegun crews and for the cavalry, regardless of rank. And by 1917, the practice of an officer privately purchasing his pistol ceased. For the height of the “pistol as officer’s jewelry“ era you’ve got to look at the pre-Great War era.

Pistols are still very important to vehicle and heavy weapons crews, which is why it makes me sad when they are instead hoarded by headquarters types that have plenty of storage room under their desks for a rifle.

 

[PuckChaser]

Part of the problem is having a 20"barrel isnt practical for most HQ staff. If the CA looked at personal weapons properly, they'd realize if you gave those HQ, Sigs, Medics, vehicle crews all C8A3s, you'd be able to reallocate secondary weapons to individuals who are actually closing to within effective range of a 9mm pistol.

Or we just get enough money to buy pistols for everyone, but I know we'd get assault Unicorns with mesh network controlled laser weapons before then.

 

[Ostrozac]

Part of the problem is having a 20"barrel isnt practical for most HQ staff. If the CA looked at personal weapons properly, they'd realize if you gave those HQ, Sigs, Medics, vehicle crews all C8A3s, you'd be able to reallocate secondary weapons to individuals who are actually closing to within effective range of a 9mm pistol.

That’s a fair argument, I’d go further and say that SARP erred when they selected the C8 as the replacement for the SMG C1. They replaced a 19 inch (folded) SMG with a 30 inch (collapsed) carbine. The C8 is a smallish rifle, not a true personal defence weapon. Pistols have their role, but office workers should have something like the 16 inch (collapsed) MP7.

 

[Kat Stevens]

You’ve probably got to go even earlier than that. By 1916 the revolver was a standard issue item for Vickers machinegun crews and for the cavalry, regardless of rank. And by 1917, the practice of an officer privately purchasing his pistol ceased. For the height of the “pistol as officer’s jewelry“ era you’ve got to look at the pre-Great War era.

Pistols are still very important to vehicle and heavy weapons crews, which is why it makes me sad when they are instead hoarded by headquarters types that have plenty of storage room under their desks for a rifle.

NOBODY below the rank of WO was issued a pistol until we started going to other countries en mass, early 90s, at least in engineer regiments.

 

[Haggis]

With a possible buy of up to 22K units, everyone will want a pistol because it will be the newest piece of LCF kit. Sadly, most will apply the archaic marksmanship lessons they used with the BHP and be no further ahead. A new pistol should come with a new teaching and shooting package for the mainstream military. Some specialist occupations and forward thinking units do very well in this regard. The rest, well, miss the mark.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

NOBODY below the rank of WO was issued a pistol until we started going to other countries en mass, early 90s, at least in engineer regiments.

As a Cpl, driving a tank in 72-75 Germany, my personal weapon was a Browning. I think it's more dependent on unit individual taskings and TO&E.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

With a possible buy of up to 22K units, everyone will want a pistol because it will be the newest piece of LCF kit. Sadly, most will apply the archaic marksmanship lessons they used with the BHP and be no further ahead. A new pistol should come with a new teaching and shooting package for the mainstream military. Some specialist occupations and forward thinking units do very well in this regard. The rest, well, miss the mark.

Apologies, I used your post to quote the whole subject.
I think the idea of new pistols is great. I also think new, updated training is a must.
I also think it's good to talk and discuss it.
However, this is a DND contract. We have a government that cares less about people, let alone equipment. And they have had a dismal record of delivering on time, if at all. By all means, hope and plan but I wouldn't start placing any bets right now.