Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?

[Haggis]

We have a government that cares less about people, let alone equipment. And they have had a dismal record of delivering on time, if at all. By all means, hope and plan but I wouldn't start placing any bets right now.

Which is why I titled the thread as a question and not a statement.

The history of the BHP replacement is a long one. However if the C20 sniper system is a predictor of future weapons procurements under this government, we might actually see a new pistol in the near future.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

If the GoC were smart, they'd do a buy for all the federal agencies (CAF, RCMP, CBSA etc). That would be about 50,000 units and worth bidding on by some of the manufacturers who may have passed on it last time as "not worth the effort".

I like the way Glocks shoot, but I own a P320 which I can shoot really well. I don't like the way Glocks sit in my hand, but I'm retired now and have no dog in this fight.

I'm pretty sure Glock started including adjustable back straps with their Gen 4 model to address your common complaint.

 

[Haggis]

I'm pretty sure Glock started including adjustable back straps with their Gen 4 model to address your common complaint.

It's not that. There's a small but significant divot/notch at the bottom of the trigger guard where it meets the pistol grip. That digs into my middle finger while shooting.

 

[Kat Stevens]

It's not that. There's a small but significant divot/notch at the bottom of the trigger guard where it meets the pistol grip. That digs into my middle finger while shooting.
View attachment 64408

Fortunately, your government, in it's never ending pursuit of the finest gear available for our troops, has already sourced a gender neutral culturally diverse solution to this problem.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's not that. There's a small but significant divot/notch at the bottom of the trigger guard where it meets the pistol grip. That digs into my middle finger while shooting.
View attachment 64408

$50 from BlackBox Customs might help with that.

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[Haggis]

$50 from BlackBox Customs might help with that.

Black Box Customs - Frame Work

Quality doesn't happen by accident. It can't be reached by taking shortcuts. Each and every single stipple is pressed in by hand, to depth and pattern depending on the result you're trying to achieve. Grips, frames, rail covers, magazines, shotgun pumps, knife scales, even phone ca

www.blackboxcustoms.com

Well, since I don't own a Glock (and probably never will) and my days of firing CAF issued guns are over, my problem has already been solved. That is until my agency goes Glock....

 

[Jarnhamar]

Well, since I don't own a Glock (and probably never will)

Good thing you have classy friends, I'll bring some up

 

[Retired AF Guy]

They did make a copy a long time ago, but apparently it was really bad, even by Norinco standards

Speaking of copies I was looking at a Turkish made copy of the Hi-Power while back and it looked pretty good. A good write-up is here.

I didn't know this until I read the above linked article but Browning was still making Hi-Powers in the US up till 2017. So how come Canada didn't just go and order some new pistols from the US?

 

[MJP]

Speaking of copies I was looking at a Turkish made copy of the Hi-Power while back and it looked pretty good. A good write-up is here.

I didn't know this until I read the above linked article but Browning was still making Hi-Powers in the US up till 2017. So how come Canada didn't just go and order some new pistols from the US?

Cause there were thousands (I haven't pulled the numbers in a few years but we had lots) in Op Stock so we didn't need a new pistol per se. Ordering more would have triggered the process they are going through now so it would have been moot.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Speaking of copies I was looking at a Turkish made copy of the Hi-Power while back and it looked pretty good. A good write-up is here.

I didn't know this until I read the above linked article but Browning was still making Hi-Powers in the US up till 2017. So how come Canada didn't just go and order some new pistols from the US?

I have a Portuguese made one, the righthand side of the safety snapped off, thanks to a bad casting. I fondled the Turkish ones, they are very nicely done. However both the Glock and the M17 are better all round pistols than the BHP, which has a design flaw that limits the life of the frame, not generally a problem in army service where each pistol sees about 200 rds a year at best. What destroys most of them is the cleaning process.

 

[MilEME09]

Part of the problem is having a 20"barrel isnt practical for most HQ staff. If the CA looked at personal weapons properly, they'd realize if you gave those HQ, Sigs, Medics, vehicle crews all C8A3s, you'd be able to reallocate secondary weapons to individuals who are actually closing to within effective range of a 9mm pistol.

Or we just get enough money to buy pistols for everyone, but I know we'd get assault Unicorns with mesh network controlled laser weapons before then.

From what I was told by my former Adj back in about 2013, the CA looked at PDW type weapons for vehicle crews, and CSS types. Result was a couple options were explored/looked at. P90's and FN Five seven pistols (company was willing to throw in the pistol if the p90 was bought), MP7s w/pistol, or C8s. Ultimately due to logistics the C8 was seen as the better option, however with the end of Afghanistan and shrinking budgets the whole idea was shelved.

 

[Haggis]

Now that CZ has bought Colt and Colt Canada, maybe the CAF will see a Shadow II in their holsters soon?

 

[PuckChaser]

Is it in use in any NATO country? Pretty sure that was a requirement.

 

[CBH99]

While it's important that whatever pistol we choose is proven, reliable, and already 'in service' or 'in use' -- how important is it that the M17/M18 has been adopted by the US Military en masse?

I understand the rationale for things such as fighter jets, trucks, logistics vehicles, IFV's, etc etc - to have similar models in use with our primary allies, as it really does help ease maintenance while deployed to theatre. Bonus if all the big players are using the same kind of ammunition, fuel, radios, etc etc.

I also understand the pricing advantages there are to buying those things when an economy of scale can be taken advantage of, along with working production lines.


However, when it comes to something like a pistol - how important is it that it is in service with the US? Would there be any savings, or any advantage in ease of maintenance, just because the same model is in US Military use? (Sorry if the answer is obvious... I'm just having a hard time linking the maintenance & compatibility issues of a fighter jet or IFV in theatre, with that of a pistol.)

 

[dapaterson]

Purchasing an in service model is more about proven reliability. Only user of an item? You are paying for all non-recurring engineering, premium prices for spares etc etc. Many other users? More availability and better support.

 

[Haggis]

One of the previous stumbling blocks in CAF pistol procurement was the requirement for the winning bidder to transfer their intellectual property rights to Colt Canada so the pistol could be built here under licence. Now that Colt Canada has been purchased by CZG, that requirement becomes moot as the winning bidder's IP would fall into the hands of a Czech corporation. This, in my opinion,, will probably result in a much accelerated COTS buy and I suspect it will be a Sig Sauer or Glock.

Purchasing an in service model is more about proven reliability. Only user of an item? You are paying for all non-recurring engineering, premium prices for spares etc etc. Many other users? More availability and better support.

CZG has a number of proven pistols on the market and in use by police and military units around the world. They have made small inroads into the North American police market, but nothing compared to the Sig Sauer and Glock products. As far as I know, they didn't become involved in the previous attempts at supplying a new CAF pistol.

 

[Haggis]

Is it in use in any NATO country? Pretty sure that was a requirement.

The CZ-75 received NATO certification about 15 years ago and even has it's own NSN.

 

[Fabius]

I don't see how CZ Group now owning Colt will make the IP issue moot. If the GoC remains committed to owning the IP, there is no way that Sig, Glock etc. will transfer their IP to CZ, one of the main players in the pistol market.

However the IP issue is likely not relevant as from what I understand the discussion right now 2021 is an interim pistol not a full replacement. I suspect therefore that it will be a COTS with no IP transfer.

However that means that the numbers will be small in relation to industry averages for departments, and we would likely not be able to access some of the production lines such as the Sig line for M17 or the Sig 320 DHS Models all of which I am tracking require orders over 15,000 units. Given the JTF-2 withdrawal of the Sig 320 (even if we could purchase the DoD or DHS variants) for what ever duration, I don't suspect we will rush to purchase variants of that pistol, narrowing our options

 

[Haggis]

I don't see how CZ Group now owning Colt will make the IP issue moot. If the GoC remains committed to owning the IP, there is no way that Sig, Glock etc. will transfer their IP to CZ, one of the main players in the pistol market.

However the IP issue is likely not relevant as from what I understand the discussion right now 2021 is an interim pistol not a full replacement. I suspect therefore that it will be a COTS with no IP transfer.

However that means that the numbers will be small in relation to industry averages for departments, and we would likely not be able to access some of the production lines such as the Sig line for M17 or the Sig 320 DHS Models all of which I am tracking require orders over 15,000 units. Given the JTF-2 withdrawal of the Sig 320 (even if we could purchase the DoD or DHS variants) for what ever duration, I don't suspect we will rush to purchase variants of that pistol, narrowing our options

The media talked of a buy of up to 22,000 units. That doesn't seem like an interim pistol replacement. But, after what we did buying used Aussie F-18's as an interim replacement, nothing would surprise me. 22,000 CAF units could be combined with the requirements of other federal agencies to create a sizeable order.

 

[CBH99]

The media talked of a buy of up to 22,000 units. That doesn't seem like an interim pistol replacement. But, after what we did buying used Aussie F-18's as an interim replacement, nothing would surprise me. 22,000 CAF units could be combined with the requirements of other federal agencies to create a sizeable order.

Equip all federal agencies with the same model, streamlining training, spare parts, and getting some of the benefits of economy of scale?

Wake up Haggis, it's already 1pm here in Alberta....smell the coffee, wake up mate. Dream time is over.