Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?

[Halifax Tar]

I think the P320 is going to be a good system for what we use it for.

Where I can see it falling down (along with most of our PWT regimen) is the frequency of training and making pers comfortable not only shooting, but manipulating and holding a loaded and readied pistol without making people panicked about potentially killing their buddy.

Safety is always a core value, however, if people are terrified to use this system, you're just going to have the same amount of NDs; just with a new pistol.

This is where we fail. We should be encouraging members to use the ranges just like we do gyms. Get comfortable and proficient with small arms.

FWIW the pistol was seen as an officer sidearm and no wretched NCM should be issued one. I reckon that prejudice still may exist .

In AFG I always had a C7 and a Browning when I went on CLPs or at the PDC...

 

[Haggis]

Awhile ago a buddy of mine - a Saanich cop - invited me to join in on a range ex where they were taking their police reservists through the Glock and the shotgun.

It was one of the most pleasant periods of range instruction I can recall ever being a part of.

Despite never having handled Glock before, by the end of it, I was regularly hitting the bullseye and feeling confident overall in handling the pistol. Other participants, who had never handled any kind of pistol before, were doing the same.

Whatever the police are doing in this regard is a good thing, and something that the CAF could definitely learn from IMHO.

LEAs are quite good at teaching basic user-level pistol. When I joined my agency I couldn't believe the high quality of instructors and instruction I received and the amount of ammo we fired. The CAF could learn a lot.

If they are lucky the RCMP seem to get about 200rds a year, the BC Sheriffs was much worse at 50 rounds every 18 months at one point, not sure if they improved that. What I found with police, is that they are either really good and take time to practice, or utterly terrible and avoid practice if at all possible. Not that much of average shooters.

Our annual qualification is 32 rounds per year, plus a few hundred for developmental training. Our officers get 1000 rounds for off-duty practice every year. Some use it, most don't because range availability is an issue. In response to Trudeau's policies, an increasing number of civilian ranges are refusing to renew their MOUs with LEAs. Yes, they lose money, but gun clubs are, by law, not for profit entities in Canada.

Thankfully there is a civilian organization that promotes handgun shooting and is always looking for new members, oh wait, yea that right, they are effed by the current government.

 

[Haggis]

This is where we fail. We should be encouraging members to use the ranges just like we do gyms. Get comfortable and proficient with small arms.

Non-CAF range use by the CAF is very rare. I tried to get my gun club approved and was repeatedly told "No!, Not now, not ever. Go to Petawawa." by DAT.

All C7 "lookalikes" are banned now and forever which kills off-duty practice. Handguns will be gone after the next Liberal win, if not sooner.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Non-CAF range use by the CAF is very rare. I tried to get my gun club approved and was repeatedly told "No!, Not now, not ever. Go to Petawawa." by DAT.

All C7 "lookalikes" are banned now and forever which kills off-duty practice. Handguns will be gone after the next Liberal win, if not sooner.

Not what I meant.

I understand ranges have to push through scheduled training but in my world where the sky is purple, I would like to see open range time and ammunition available to members to book time and a weapon and have staff supervise.

Example:
On Monday at 2, I booked the range for 200rds C7 practice.

Book as much as you want.

 

[markppcli]

FWIW the pistol was seen as an officer sidearm and no wretched NCM should be issued one. I reckon that prejudice still may exist .

Nah that’s pretty much dead. Pistol use is taught on UOI, it’s required in infantry IBTS, and pistoles are issued out to section commanders and MG crew. At least they were a yea for so ago.

 

[brihard]

Nah that’s pretty much dead. Pistol use is taught on UOI, it’s required in infantry IBTS, and pistoles are issued out to section commanders and MG crew. At least they were a yea for so ago.

Yup, my Urban Ops Instructor course was the only time in CAF I got anything resembling decent pistol training. I’ve found that my police service has evolved to having reasonably decent training on pistols (we moved to a ‘gun as per of a fight’ mentality Bs shooting for precision), and I was lucky for a few years to get some training days baked in to my unit schedule. Later I became a firearms instructor with us and found that training pretty decent too. I’ve faded a bit since, but my office job is still tolerant of me getting out to help instruct on the range periodically.

 

[Haggis]

Not what I meant.

I understand ranges have to push through scheduled training but in my world where the sky is purple, I would like to see open range time and ammunition available to members to book time and a weapon and have staff supervise.

Example:
On Monday at 2, I booked the range for 200rds C7 practice.

Book as much as you want.

Gotcha! That would be a huge step in the right direction. But that only works for Reg F pers and PRes units in close proximity to a CAF range. What about the rest of the world?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Back in the day of indoor ranges at armouries, we used pull out the .22cal revolvers all the time to practice and the .22 sub cal kits for the FN's

 

[dapaterson]

SATs are an underused resource.

 

[KevinB]

When I was in Petawawa, Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa, there were base clubs.
In Edmonton with the Bde Club a bunch of us used to use the 25m at lunch and the main ranges in the evening and weekends.
Ottawa had NDHQ RA at Connaught for weekends. Plus for a while Sittsville had a good arrangement with the CAF.

As long as you had RSO’s you were golden.
The current gun laws probably stifle that situation- but Unit Small Arms teams rarely had a lack of ammo. In 17 years of service, I can’t think of a year I shot under 1k 9mm and since SARP a year with less than 5k 5.56mm on rifle teams. The C1A1 years were lower but we had Subcal.22LR kits.
Just need to get motivated NCO’s and ideally a Maj (they can be stellar at finding ammo in the system)

 

[KevinB]

SATs are an underused resource.

Personally I think they are fantastic for scenarios, but fail in providing a decent marksmanship platform.
The problem with the scenarios is they require a knowledgeable operator and DS to make a useful training tool and learning from that.
They can be used for shoot/no shoot, incident response and control as well reaction time monitoring for improvements.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Gotcha! That would be a huge step in the right direction. But that only works for Reg F pers and PRes units in close proximity to a CAF range. What about the rest of the world?

Perhaps we need to god back in time to indoor ranges in Armouries ?

 

[OldSolduer]

First thing - train EVERYONE in pistol shooting - right down to the Private in the mess tent.

Next thing - indoctrinate your officers and WOs that pistols are not a status symbol but a weapon of war and all need to know the basics of marksmanship.

 

[KevinB]

First thing - train EVERYONE in pistol shooting - right down to the Private in the mess tent.

Next thing - indoctrinate your officers and WOs that pistols are not a status symbol but a weapon of war and all need to know the basics of marksmanship.

9mm is also cheap compared to 5.56mm, and training on pistol is significantly more rewarding to marksmanship and safety than rifle/carbine.
Plus ranges are much easier templated for 9mm than 5.56mm

 

[OldSolduer]

First thing - train EVERYONE in pistol shooting - right down to the Private in the mess tent.

Next thing - indoctrinate your officers and WOs that pistols are not a status symbol but a weapon of war and all need to know the basics of marksmanship.

FYI I thought of Ed Witt when I wrote this. He was terrifying. He jacked up a MCpl for not knowing how to use the .32 pistol that was issued to the Bde Comd.

So that's where that came from.

 

[OldSolduer]

Perhaps we need to god back in time to indoor ranges in Armouries ?

Good idea but last time I checked the indoor range in Minto was condemned due to poor ventilation, It might have changed since then

 

[dapaterson]

Any space in an armoury can be a range, if you ignore all safety rules.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

FYI I thought of Ed Witt when I wrote this. He was terrifying. He jacked up a MCpl for not knowing how to use the .32 pistol that was issued to the Bde Comd.

So that's where that came from.

You're bang on though (pardon the pun).

I remember doing a Foreign Service Weapon famil range prior to my tour in Egypt.

I remember having the RSO, a very chill and professional RCR Sgt, tear into the Aerospace Control MCpl for not being able to safely handle an AK-47. "I uh...am not qualified on the weapon Sgt..."

"Do you know how to load, unload, ready, make safe, and fire a C7?"

"Yes?"

"You're fucking over qualified. Rounds go in, bullets come out. That's what shooting is all about. STFU and do the drill properly"

 

[OldSolduer]

You're bang on though (pardon the pun).

I remember doing a Foreign Service Weapon famil range prior to my tour in Egypt.

I remember having the RSO, a very chill and professional RCR Sgt, tear into the Aerospace Control MCpl for not being able to safely handle an AK-47. "I uh...am not qualified on the weapon Sgt..."

"Do you know how to load, unload, ready, make safe, and fire a C7?"

"Yes?"

"You're fucking over qualified. Rounds go in, bullets come out. That's what shooting is all about. STFU and do the drill properly"

We forget that junior and senior NCOs are the tech experts on SA matters....but the system discourages them from these basic tasks. "we have more important things to do."

 

[Furniture]

I had it out with my Ops O on tour IRT this attitude.

Climbing in and out of LAVs, Bisons, and AHSVS' doing comms installs with a C7A2 clunking me in the back of the head was perfectly acceptable because "well you're a Corporal and there's only enough pistols to go around..." Meanwhile, they were taking off their Bazaar pistol holsters off and hanging them up I the TOC for 12 hours at a time.

Utter garbage. I would rather my troops be able to move around and do their work, while being capable to defend themselves, than have the delusions of grandeur about sending the lads over the top at Ypres...

On my ROTO my unit issued pistols to drivers... except the Air Force guy. Apparently my blue silly hat meant my training was qualification was invalid, and the green silly hats of the other drivers qualified them without having used a browning before.

The unit also issued them to the KAF guys, because carrying around a C7 was too much hassle in the Tim's line.

EDIT: Added some clarity.