Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?

[rmc_wannabe]

On my ROTO my unit issued pistols to drivers... except the Air Force guy. Apparently my blue silly hat meant my training was qualification was invalid, and the green silly hats of the other drivers qualified them without having used a browning before.

They also issued them to the KAF guys, because carrying around a C7 was too much hassle in the Tim's line.

I was mostly a KAF guy and that shit drove me bonkers. Having one of our DOs pump 3 rounds into the clearing bay after they came off their "Combat Tourism" run to Tarnak was very telling.

Having to explain that you need to remove the mag before the slide goes forward, otherwise it picks up a round, and seeing the "error...system loading" look on their face made me hope to God it was the last time they ever left camp...

 

[Furniture]

I was mostly a KAF guy and that shit drove me bonkers. Having one of our DOs pump 3 rounds into the clearing bay after they came off their "Combat Tourism" run to Tarnak was very telling.

Having to explain that you need to remove the mag before the slide goes forward, otherwise it picks up a round, and seeing the "error...system loading" look on their face made me hope to God it was the last time they ever left camp...

The CAF does a terrible job of teaching people how to shoot. There is usually a terrible combination of not enough exposure to the weapons, and idiot "instructors" that spend their time yelling at, and intimidating the trainees rather than teaching.

I learned to shoot pistol somewhat reasonably when deployed with NTOG, as the NTOG guys paired-off with each shooter and gave one-on-one coaching. Having a reasonable person standing beside you giving pointers is a lot more effective than having a guy three shooters down yelling at people...

 

[dapaterson]

My marksmanship diminished in direct correlation to my coaching from the Army.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The CAF does a terrible job of teaching people how to shoot. There is usually a terrible combination of not enough exposure to the weapons, and idiot "instructors" that spend their time yelling at, and intimidating the trainees rather than teaching.

I learned to shoot pistol somewhat reasonably when deployed with NTOG, as the NTOG guys paired-off with each shooter and gave one-on-one coaching. Having a reasonable person standing beside you giving pointers is a lot more effective than having a guy three shooters down yelling at people...

Agreed.

Best shoot of my career was when I was attached to 3 RCR in Poland. I was handed a full ammo can and was paired off with one of the Recce Pl Snipers as an A/RSO. We basically did 10 Rd Groupings at 200m until I had gone through the can. Gave me so many pointers along the way and it just became muscle memory. I was able to learn and improve greatly.

Fast forward to Spring IBTS at my unit... same stupidity as usual..."Keep that barrel down range!" "Do not pick up the rifle after the serial is finished!"

 

[Furniture]

Agreed.

Best shoot of my career was when I was attached to 3 RCR in Poland. I was handed a full ammo can and was paired off with one of the Recce Pl Snipers as an A/RSO. We basically did 10 Rd Groupings at 200m until I had gone through the can. Gave me so many pointers along the way and it just became muscle memory. I was able to learn and improve greatly.

Fast forward to Spring IBTS at my unit... same stupidity as usual..."Keep that barrel down range!" "Do not pick up the rifle after the serial is finished!"

When I was a Force Protection Watch Leader I often had to tell the Upper Deck Sentries to stop carrying their rifles at the shoulder while on sentry... They had been so brow beaten by "never point your rifle at the ground" on the range that they were terrified of holding their rifle in the low port/carry.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

When I was a Force Protection Watch Leader I often had to tell the Upper Deck Sentries to stop carrying their rifles at the shoulder while on sentry... They had been so brow beaten by "never point your rifle at the ground" on the range that they were terrified of holding their rifle in the low port/carry.

Ugg. Bad memories of Fleet School range staff…

 

[KevinB]

My marksmanship diminished in direct correlation to my coaching from the Army.

I wouldn’t disagree with you for the most part.
IMHO the CAF does a shit job in weapons training outside of DHTC.
I was bugging some CSOR buddies they needed to go back to Blackwater to get their money back when I was up shooting with them several years ago.

That’s not to say many Nations do it better.
The Vanilla SOF units (non JSOC) down here don’t have awe inspiring average skills either (IMHO).

When they lumped in the ISACC to PSWQ (which was the same length but had to deal with multiple weapons and very little coaching) the CA was already in the death spiral of conventional NCO Small Arms coaching knowledge.
* I don’t just say that because I had to take PSWQ despite being old school MG, Mortar, and Small Arms Coach because I wasn’t Eryx trained (despite Eryx was destined to go away…)

Plus a lot of ‘knowledge’ was based on flat KD range - which is a good fundamental, but misses the boat in actual combat shooting requirements.

But hey, for most conventional units down here the CAF looks like gods in that respect, as the equivalent PWT down here in the Army is utter garbage that a blind man could pass.
The replacement programs have been worked on for over a decade. A friend of mine who was a Captain at the time running the Infantry Skill Coy in Benning after coming from the Rangers, then went to TRADOC as a Maj to help run it thru is now a post command Col and I haven’t seen a change yet (admittedly I try to stay far away from conventional units, but I still hear the complaints…)

 

[brihard]

You're bang on though (pardon the pun).

I remember doing a Foreign Service Weapon famil range prior to my tour in Egypt.

I remember having the RSO, a very chill and professional RCR Sgt, tear into the Aerospace Control MCpl for not being able to safely handle an AK-47. "I uh...am not qualified on the weapon Sgt..."

"Do you know how to load, unload, ready, make safe, and fire a C7?"

"Yes?"

"You're fucking over qualified. Rounds go in, bullets come out. That's what shooting is all about. STFU and do the drill properly"

That’s a pretty immature and probably not particularly useful approach. I don’t know why some infantry NCOs insist on the ‘aggressively dumb’ approach when small arms are involved. I’ve seen it too.

If someone doesn’t know something, be a professional and teach them. And treat them like the adult and the volunteer that they are while you’re doing it. You’ll probably get way better results. And if they’re from another trade, remember that if they can’t do everything you can, pretty safe bet that they CAN do a lot of things you can’t. Humble maturity is always welcome among professionals.

 

[OldSolduer]

I don't know where or who taught y'all things about shooting - like marksmanship principles, safety etc.

The reason some RSOs yell at their students is because that's how they were trained and they are lacking confidence in their own teaching skills.

Safety is one thing and yes it does have its place. But the aim of it all is to have soldiers put down copper jacketed projectiles onto the enemy thereby killing him or incapacitating him. Or her. Or whatever they identify as.....

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I don't know where or who taught y'all things about shooting - like marksmanship principles, safety etc.

The reason some RSOs yell at their students is because that's how they were trained and they are lacking confidence in their own teaching skills.

Safety is one thing and yes it does have its place. But the aim of it all is to have soldiers put down copper jacketed projectiles onto the enemy thereby killing him or incapacitating him. Or her. Or whatever they identify as.....

My main point was not that "oh drag...safety...eyeroll" is an OK attitude. That's just as bad as the OCD fear and panic attitudes as well.

My main point was that we often lose the common sense of it all in the fear of liability. If the weapon is in a safe state be that in the make safe, or unloaded, or loaded/readied/weapon on safe; keeping a barrel parallel with the ground pointing downrange is overkill. It breeds bad habits because it doesn't teach barrel discipline, trigger finger discipline, or knowing the state of your weapon. I had an RSO order all personnel to carry rifles at the trail on a PWT 3 because it was "safer" because barrel always point down range... except when Bloggins slipped and the rifle went barrel first into the berm.

There's safety, then there's risk aversion. In some cases...especially when we need folks to have confidence in their weapons handling, the latter can be more dangerous than not following the former.

 

[PuckChaser]

If you cant carry a readied weapon at the low ready and move in the direction of a threat, you're not green to deploy. We do such a garbage job of range training it's laughable.

 

[OldSolduer]

If you cant carry a readied weapon at the low ready and move in the direction of a threat, you're not green to deploy. We do such a garbage job of range training it's laughable.

I was in the infantry and small arms are one of our areas of expertise. I noticed in some non infantry units they try to out infantry the infantry.
Does that make sense? Hell no. If you're a service battalion be that. Or an armored squadron. or whatever.

No insult to the Jimmies but some of their leadership were over the top.

 

[KevinB]

I was in the infantry and small arms should be one of our areas of expertise.

I FIFY

 

[Haggis]

My main point was not that "oh drag...safety...eyeroll" is an OK attitude. That's just as bad as the OCD fear and panic attitudes as well.

My main point was that we often lose the common sense of it all in the fear of liability. If the weapon is in a safe state be that in the make safe, or unloaded, or loaded/readied/weapon on safe; keeping a barrel parallel with the ground pointing downrange is overkill. It breeds bad habits because it doesn't teach barrel discipline, trigger finger discipline, or knowing the state of your weapon. I had an RSO order all personnel to carry rifles at the trail on a PWT 3 because it was "safer" because barrel always point down range... except when Bloggins slipped and the rifle went barrel first into the berm.

There's safety, then there's risk aversion. In some cases...especially when we need folks to have confidence in their weapons handling, the latter can be more dangerous than not following the former.

I've been a full time firearms trainer with my agency for 10 years. We have gone from a culture of "safety scared" to "safety conscious" and it has made a huge difference. Yes we still have oopsies, just like any armed organization where people carry "hot" every day, but they are rare and usually the result of officers abandoning their training.

 

[KevinB]

I've been a full time firearms trainer with my agency for 10 years. We have gone from a culture of "safety scared" to "safety conscious" and it has made a huge difference. Yes we still have oopsies, just like any armed organization where people carry "hot" every day, but they are rare and usually the result of officers abandoning their training.

As soon as you normalize safe carriage of weapons as the standard and not an aberration, things generally go better.

Lack of trust in personnel is corrosive, and the only way to ensure trust is proper training. The only way to have proper training is to have competent trainers.

 

[Rifleman62]

Minto Armories was certified for 9mm.
From what I heard a couple of weeks ago, Minto is in really, really bad shape.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Minto Armories was certified for 9mm.
From what I heard a couple of weeks ago, Minto is in really, really bad shape.

Civilians manage to organize and build indoor ranges... We have a fantastic one in Halifax that I use in the winter.

All it takes is the will and the $$$$$

 

[Haggis]

Civilians manage to organize and build indoor ranges... We have a fantastic on in Halifax that I use in the winter.

All it takes is the will and the $$$$$

And getting around the NIMBY crowd.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Civilians manage to organize and build indoor ranges... We have a fantastic one in Halifax that I use in the winter.

All it takes is the will and the $$$$$

and you can recycle the majority of the components as well

 

[markppcli]

Perhaps we need to god back in time to indoor ranges in Armouries ?

Don’t most have a SAT? That’s just a matter of using it.