Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?

[OceanBonfire]

The original RFP called for up to 22,000 units. We're getting initially 7,000 and, at best, 16,000. That being said, according to the news release, this is an Army-centric buy. The other services will (may) be equipped later.

Remember, too, that this has dragged on so long that the project is older than the project team members.

1. I thought the RCN uses Sig Sauers exclusively, not the Browning?
2. Aside from fighter crews, I don't know who in the RCAF regularly uses the 9mm unless deployed.

Pretty sure the intent was to also replace the P225, P226 and P239 with the new gun, as the modular frame and slide method can accomplish all their roles in one.

CAF-wide:

Defence Materiel - ADM(Mat) | Matériel de défense - SMA(Mat) on LinkedIn: #dyk #wellequipped

Mission success! #DYK that the first batch of 2 500 C22 Modular Full Frame Pistols was delivered on May 2? Curious about the backstory? After a competitive…

www.linkedin.com

 

[Haggis]

Don’t most have a SAT? That’s just a matter of using it.

Once all the IBTS, WHMIS, harrrasment, positive space, reconciliation, GBA+ and all other mandatory training is completed, maybe then you can use the SATS. If it works and if your unit has trained operators.

Although not a substitute for live fire, its a valuable training tool if used properly and not just as a video game.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I wouldn’t disagree with you for the most part.
IMHO the CAF does a shit job in weapons training outside of DHTC.
I was bugging some CSOR buddies they needed to go back to Blackwater to get their money back when I was up shooting with them several years ago.

That’s not to say many Nations do it better.
The Vanilla SOF units (non JSOC) down here don’t have awe inspiring average skills either (IMHO).

When they lumped in the ISACC to PSWQ (which was the same length but had to deal with multiple weapons and very little coaching) the CA was already in the death spiral of conventional NCO Small Arms coaching knowledge.
* I don’t just say that because I had to take PSWQ despite being old school MG, Mortar, and Small Arms Coach because I wasn’t Eryx trained (despite Eryx was destined to go away…)

Plus a lot of ‘knowledge’ was based on flat KD range - which is a good fundamental, but misses the boat in actual combat shooting requirements.

But hey, for most conventional units down here the CAF looks like gods in that respect, as the equivalent PWT down here in the Army is utter garbage that a blind man could pass.
The replacement programs have been worked on for over a decade. A friend of mine who was a Captain at the time running the Infantry Skill Coy in Benning after coming from the Rangers, then went to TRADOC as a Maj to help run it thru is now a post command Col and I haven’t seen a change yet (admittedly I try to stay far away from conventional units, but I still hear the complaints…)

Sorry but being retired for 20 odd years; ISACC, PSWQ?

 

[KevinB]

Sorry but being retired for 20 odd years; ISACC, PSWQ?

ISACC or SAC was the Infantry Small Army Coaching Course. It originally was a 4 week course for JNCO’s to learn advanced marksmanship and how to teach shooting.
Then it was a two week course, then again folded in to a few lessons on the Platoon Support Weapons Qualification Course (PSWQ).

The PSWQ ‘taught’ a MG course, a 60mm Bipod (and theoretically Indirect Fire and Laying/recording part too, I taught that part of the course on the range to guys in my Det, while the Sgt watched (we’d known each other for years prior and knew I was a prior Arty and Mortar guy), pistol, and Eryx.
IIRC it was about 20 training days.
I think @MJP may have been in that course with me. I suspect he lost about as many brainless as I did.

My first MG course was I think 3 months, then second (with the C6 and QCB M2) was about the same. The Arty at the time I did it first didn’t have the C6 and the 50 was still head space and timing, then did the second MG course in Calgary with 1VP.

The C6 SF role portion of the PSWQ was a week at best.

Not sure if PSWQ is still a thing, but it was a useless waste of my time, as we used the Eryx sim but never fired a missile as it was slated for removal…
But as I had broken service I didn’t get grandfathered to ignore it (same with the old radio comms course, but I digress).

 

[Retired AF Guy]

ISACC or SAC was the Infantry Small Army Coaching Course. It originally was a 4 week course for JNCO’s to learn advanced marksmanship and how to teach shooting.
Then it was a two week course, then again folded in to a few lessons on the Platoon Support Weapons Qualification Course (PSWQ).

The PSWQ ‘taught’ a MG course, a 60mm Bipod (and theoretically Indirect Fire and Laying/recording part too, I taught that part of the course on the range to guys in my Det, while the Sgt watched (we’d known each other for years prior and knew I was a prior Arty and Mortar guy), pistol, and Eryx.
IIRC it was about 20 training days.
I think @MJP may have been in that course with me. I suspect he lost about as many brainless as I did.

My first MG course was I think 3 months, then second (with the C6 and QCB M2) was about the same. The Arty at the time I did it first didn’t have the C6 and the 50 was still head space and timing, then did the second MG course in Calgary with 1VP.

The C6 SF role portion of the PSWQ was a week at best.

Not sure if PSWQ is still a thing, but it was a useless waste of my time, as we used the Eryx sim but never fired a missile as it was slated for removal…
But as I had broken service I didn’t get grandfathered to ignore it (same with the old radio comms course, but I digress).

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

[Infanteer]

Not sure if PSWQ is still a thing, but it was a useless waste of my time, as we used the Eryx sim but never fired a missile as it was slated for removal…
But as I had broken service I didn’t get grandfathered to ignore it (same with the old radio comms course, but I digress).

No. Back to Basic MG/Basic Anti Armour as separate courses, an ISCC for Cpl to MCpl, and a SAIC for MCpl to Sgt.

 

[KevinB]

No. Back to Basic MG/Basic Anti Armour as separate courses, an ISCC for Cpl to MCpl, and a SAIC for MCpl to Sgt.

Not SAIC. Different course.
AA was Tow only.

 

[Infanteer]

I know. SAIC changed for a bit but is back to its previous form. I'd have to see where the small arms coaching bit migrated to.

 

[OldSolduer]

I know. SAIC changed for a bit but is back to its previous form. I'd have to see where the small arms coaching bit migrated to.

I took my SAIC in 1987. It was a number of fun filled weeks in Gagetown and we used the new family of SA. We also re took the SA Coaches course despite many of us being qualified already. Many thousands of rounds put down range there were. Great fun.

 

[KevinB]

I know. SAIC changed for a bit but is back to its previous form. I'd have to see where the small arms coaching bit migrated to.

SAC was a course for Cpl’s and MCpl’s (theoretically was supposed to be before ISCC, but a number of PRes MCpl’s were on my course).
I didn’t see it survive past the early/mid 90’s.
For the Reserves in the 80’s at least it served as SAIC (to much angst from the RCR Course WO on my course).


Honestly in Calgary when 1VP was running rifle team, Blake Ives (as a disgruntled Cpl) was effectively running a full summer SAC for the team, as for at least two summers, each shooter on the team was shooting around 20k 5.56 and getting marksmanship instruction and coaching. He was doing it primarily to help get a solid pool for basic sniper, but it had a lot of other tertiary benefits.
As a Sgt and WO in Edmonton he did some similar stuff when the schedule allowed.

SAIC to me always should have been the refinement of both weapons instruction , and shooting instruction, but primarily weapons employment.
I know it’s morphed multiple times to ‘optimize’ but some of the serials I swear sent back dumber Sgt’s. At least two I had to teach grouping and zeroing to in Edmonton after they had graduated (and apparently you can’t just email CTC Standards on your own to ask that someone’s qualification be revoked )

 

[markppcli]

Once all the IBTS, WHMIS, harrrasment, positive space, reconciliation, GBA+ and all other mandatory training is completed, maybe then you can use the SATS. If it works and if your unit has trained operators.

Although not a substitute for live fire, its a valuable training tool if used properly and not just as a video game.

You can actually hit off a bunch of ibts on the sat. But my comment was in response to the .22 ranges which also aren’t a substitute.

I know. SAIC changed for a bit but is back to its previous form. I'd have to see where the small arms coaching bit migrated to.

SAIC doesn’t go into detail on coaching. The focus is class room instruction and running the range itself. I learned rifle coaching on IPSWQ, I think it gets touched in in ISCC? But honestly not sure

 

[Haggis]

SAIC doesn’t go into detail on coaching. The focus is class room instruction and running the range itself. I learned rifle coaching on IPSWQ, I think it gets touched in in ISCC? But honestly not sure

Way back, there used to be two courses: SAIC and Small Arms Coach (SAC). Is there anything similar to SAC in the system now?

 

[KevinB]

Way back, there used to be two courses: SAIC and Small Arms Coach (SAC). Is there anything similar to SAC in the system now?

I think the consensus is now, it’s just a minor part of PSWDQ or IPSWQ (to apparently clarify it’s Infantry Platoon Support Weapons).

 

[IRepoCans]

To bring everything to within the last decade: coaching is barely touched on during Weapons Det Member (IBMG + AGLS if you do it all split up), it's something mentioned in the MLP but not really expanded upon during PLQ, and ISCC is currently far too condensed to even give it any consideration. The current ASAIC based off feedback from the past 5 or so years spends less time on weapon instruction technique given how PLQ mod 2 is structured, and is more focused on running conventional ranges, refresher / qualifying on the breadth of CAF small arms / crew-served weapons (minus HMG and TOW) and if the member has not yet done AFFRSO they get qualified on being an RSO, ARSO and grenade NCO on unconventional ranges.

ASAIC also has brought in a big improvement as they now hold a lot of lesson's learned on unsafe practices and events that have occurred on ranges, exercises and so on (the army of the West pops up a lot here, along with the short comings of the CAF not issuing out ballistic plates to members on dynamic ranges and our utter lack of equipment required to run large scale low light dynamic ranges safely).

 

[markppcli]

I think the consensus is now, it’s just a minor part of PSWDQ or IPSWQ (to apparently clarify it’s Infantry Platoon Support Weapons).

IPSWQ doesn’t exist anymore. IBMG does the SF kit stuff. Where rifle coaching sits im not sure. Maybe we covered in on ASAIC but I’d have to look into the course content again.

The focus of ASAIC is class room instruction, producing range orders, and fulfilling various range positions. Both conventional and field firing. AFRSO is married to it now for better or worse.

 

[Fabius]

Anyone know what holster and attachment system the Army is going with for this pistol?

 

[markppcli]

Anyone know what holster and attachment system the Army is going with for this pistol?

Looks like Safari Land to me?

 

[KevinB]

Yuck

 

[Fabius]

Looks like Safari Land to me?

Maybe? Just a Level 1 holster as I don’t see a hood etc.
Between the thigh holsters and what look like a Level one holster I am not super impressed but it’s a step above the green issued holsters for the BHP.
It does look like at least one guy is running the pistol from his belt so maybe it comes with both a belt slide and the thigh rig.

 

[KevinB]

Maybe? Just a Level 1 holster as I don’t see a hood etc.
Between the thigh holsters and what look like a Level one holster I am not super impressed but it’s a step above the green issued holsters for the BHP.
It does look like at least one guy is running the pistol from his belt so maybe it comes with both a belt slide and the thigh rig.

No room for a light and no shroud for a MRDS.
They appear to have picked the cheapest decent and with the least room for growth holster for the modular pistol…