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Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?

Will the CAF's new pistol be a:

  • the new US service pistol, the Sig Sauer P320 (M17/M18)?

    Votes: 7 43.8%
  • the British version of the Glock 17?

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • a Beretta APX?

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • a Canadian designed Black Creek Labs PX17?

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • a Norinco?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • something else?

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

Fishbone Jones

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MilEME09

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Comment:

Otter says:
November 16, 2021 at 16:56
It should read, “One of the issues that has caused a hold up with the program is that there are not suitable Quebec produced pistols."

That's probably more true than not.
Made in Canada has become our hill to die on, as no matter the cost it seems to have to happen which is why this failed once already because no company is going to hand over IP to colt canada. Now that they are owned by CZ does that mean they win? my bet would be yes but that remains to be seen if it will hold true.
 

markppcli

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Comment:

Otter says:
November 16, 2021 at 16:56
It should read, “One of the issues that has caused a hold up with the program is that there are not suitable Quebec produced pistols."

That's probably more true than not.
It really comes down to made in Canada, as much as people love to shit on le Belle Province, most of our really awful kit isn’t made there. The rain jacket is from Peerless in Winnipeg for example.
 

PuckChaser

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All of our clothing is Peerless Garments. They're the only facility in Canada that can make items in the quantities the CAF requires. Good racket though, make junk that falls apart so the CAF has to keep buying replacements from you.
 

KevinB

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Given Canada's small market - none outside of Canada want to give their IP to Canada - so you end up with garbage in - garbage out.

Given the Right of First Refusal of Colt Canada due to the MSP - that pretty much skewered the Pistol until CZ bought Colt.

IF Canada actually thought - they would have bought DIemaco when Devtek-Heroux spun it off - and not let Colt buy it.
It would have brought back a National Small Arms Capability - and international firms wouldn't have had such a reaction.

Since CZ's pistol didn't make downselect for the US Army (albeit Joint) Modular Handgun System (MHS) program, one doesn't really know how well it would do - but then again the Army chose the Sig 320 - which fell apart in FBI and USSS testing well inside the 35k round requirement of MHS (the US Army decided to shoot 5k round and "extrapolate wear data" - both of whom opted for Glock like US SOCOM...

Now if you are like me - you wonder how one can extrapolate wear data - as to do that - you need to have a baseline of the system.
Which is the reason most entities shoot 3-6 guns to end of life - to understand what breaks and when - so you can project out your maintenance requirements.
 

dimsum

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All of our clothing is Peerless Garments. They're the only facility in Canada that can make items in the quantities the CAF requires.
Appropriate company name, really.

I thought that our operational kit was from Peerless, and our DEU kit was from Logistik? Or is L just the distributor?

Anyway, I find there are ebbs and flows in the quality of operational clothing.
 

QV

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Replacing the Browning HP with a suitable modern combat pistol could literally be the easiest lifecycle activity this military has ever had to do. The fact this hasn't happened yet and why it's apparently so hard to do epitomizes everything that is wrong with the CAF/DND/PSPC/GoC and the people involved in this.
 

dangerboy

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Appropriate company name, really.

I thought that our operational kit was from Peerless, and our DEU kit was from Logistik? Or is L just the distributor?

Anyway, I find there are ebbs and flows in the quality of operational clothing.
Logistik also supplies some of our operational kit. They recently were awarded the contract for the new General Purpose Sleeping Bag System, now if they make it or if it is sub-contracted out is hard to say.

General Purpose Sleeping Bag System (W8486-195105/001/PR) - Buyandsell.gc.ca
 

OldSolduer

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No pistol buy yet? Six weeks til the New Year and it does not look promising....
 

Ostrozac

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No pistol buy yet? Six weeks til the New Year and it does not look promising....
To sum things up, the Department tried to do an illegal sole-source buy of the Sig P320, got called out for it by the distributor for Glock and CZ, and now DND has to go completely back to the drawing board in addition to paying all legal costs for the challenge.

Do I have that about right?
 

PuckChaser

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Heaven forbid we actually chose what handgun features we want for operational reasons instead of industry telling us what we want because that's what they sell.
 

Ostrozac

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Heaven forbid we actually chose what handgun features we want for operational reasons instead of industry telling us what we want because that's what they sell.
Heaven doesn’t forbid it. The Canadian International Trade Tribunal Act does. DND had three options:

1. Obey the law.
2. Convince Parliament that the law needs to be amended for operational reasons.
3. Break the law and hope no one notices.

Our preferred option has been number 3, which doesn’t seem to be working.
 

PuckChaser

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Notice DND isn't named, it's up to PWGSC to make sure these solicitations are compliant with the law. They're the experts. I hope the only thing Rampart gets out of this is legal fees, with CZ buying Colt Canada, they don't have a hope in hell of winning now.
 

CBH99

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To sum things up, the Department tried to do an illegal sole-source buy of the Sig P320, got called out for it by the distributor for Glock and CZ, and now DND has to go completely back to the drawing board in addition to paying all legal costs for the challenge.

Do I have that about right?
Genuine question - but why would DND have to go back to the drawing board, even if the sole-source was rejected.

The pricing, quantities, spare parts, etc is already determined. Now, instead of DND just buying what they want, they have to put it up for competition - and they’ll get whatever pistol PWGSC decides.

A delay? Absolutely. Frustrating that we can’t just buy what we want, or what makes sense? For sure.


Hopefully they don’t have to start from scratch though 😕🙏🏻
 

markppcli

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From scratch, as they’ll have to rewrite their requirements and relaunch the competition.
 

KevinB

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From scratch, as they’ll have to rewrite their requirements and relaunch the competition.

It is nearly impossible to write a Sole Source JNA for a pistol in this day and age outside of small entities that have Non Disclosure Contracts.
Those same entities down here use Best Performer criteria for contract awards - so they don't need JNA's
Sometimes other entities try to buy the same item and attempt to sneak a contract thru via a SS JNA.

I personally wouldn't issue the Sig M17/M18 to anyone - but I've also been able to see the test results from two entities that tested them to destruction and the issues they had well insight the manufacturers stated life cycle.

IMHO years ago the CF should have dropped the TDP aspect and probably would have gotten a Glock 19 variant.

Now with CZ owning Colt - you will get a CZ pistol IF CZ changes it's MO on how they work with Colt.
 
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