Logistic Vehicle Modernization Project - Replacing everything from LUVW to SHLVW

[Colin Parkinson]

To a point, but keep in mind nearly every single western AFV that wasn't captured by Russia, was able to be recovered and repaired for use, and all the crews but one Challenger 2 crew survived the engagement that took out their vehicle.

Russia on the other hand has been losing crews and vehicles at unprecedented rates (well unprecedented for the last 70 years). Quantity isn't it's own form of Quality anymore.

Massive - and unarmored.

I would suggest that for a practical larger scale conflict that Canada needs to be able to create armored vehicles that aren't armored by afterthought of throwing additional armor on a vehicle after it was designed - but working with a manufacturer to come up with purpose built vehicles that incorporate an armor package from day 1 - of which some of the armor package is removable when not needed (but the chassis is purpose built as an armored vehicle).

I would also suggest that Canada find an OEM they can work with for a fleet of Tracked Armored Vehicles, including Tracked Armored Logistics vehicles.

Start supporting Roshel by buying their current fleet to fill some of our holes and guarantee them we spend X amount buy a purpose designed 4x4 AFV from them in the 1.5ton cargo range. If you think anyone is going to build another full AFV here without that insured support, them your just dreaming. You got to crawl before you can walk and run. If we continue to buy every year, eventually they have a better protected version designed and built here or a licenced designed built by them here.

 

[FJAG]

We have a dozen ACSV in 1 RCHA.

CPs? Amb? Troop/Cargo? More to come?

I'd be interested in the details as its going to figure into WAFG Vol 2 Epilogue.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Dude, we are trying to talk about trucks. You are not. Stop trying to thread hijack.

Give it a rest, It was 1 post out of over 800. And it certainly hasn't distracted anyone else but you.

 

[FJAG]

It is cheaper because it has nowhere near the same survivability.

It is in the same boat as the LENCO Bearcat, it is a domestic armored car that can work for LE, and Armored Car services. Far away from any anticipated combat it can work to protect against haphazard bombardment as a on road protected mobility ambulance/taxi - but it doesn't have the armor nor the mobility to go anywhere near an active combat zone.

Kit is cheap (even when it is expensive), people are not.

What defines an "active combat zone?" Clearly it is not optimal to be up there with the LAVs and tanks, but I can certainly see it in many rear roles that are not the usual artillery magnets. Kit isn't cheap either, and every dollar one can save on B ech vehicles means an extra dollar to spend on more or better F ech vehicles.

 

[quadrapiper]

Survivability is a luxury when you have low intensity fighting.

This is waaaay outside my field... is part of the issue in higher-intensity settings that, if you do find yourself in not the rear area, you're more likely to be bumping into tanks and/or people going loaded for tanks?

 

[markppcli]

CPs? Amb? Troop/Cargo? More to come?

I'd be interested in the details as its going to figure into WAFG Vol 2 Epilogue.

Troop carriers and CPs as far as I was tracking.

 

[CBH99]

Okay folks, let me apologize beforehand for asking a question that may have a readily available answer...

Right around 2015 or 2016, I heard pretty constant chatter about the CAF getting serious about modernizing it's logistics vehicle fleets.

When I was in, we had the MilCot (Milverado) for unit level whipping around, the LSVW which looked like it was a piece of s**t when it came out of the factory, and we had the MLVW. (There were some logistics vehicle fleets purchased for the Afghan mission, but I'm not including those here)

So in the last 10 years, where are we currently at in terms of vehicle modernization?

...

I believe units are still using the MilCot Milverado?

I believe the LSVW is still in service?

I know a lot of reserve units had their MLVWs replaced by the much larger and more capable MSVS...

Wasn't there supposed to be another fleet of trucks purchased after the MSVS for use by the Reg Force? Did that ever come to fruition?

Were the HLVW ever replaced with something newer?



Sorry to ask, it just seems like this project has dragged on for ages now. Just wondering where we are at in regards to our logistic vehicle fleets?

 

[McG]

Wasn't there supposed to be another fleet of trucks purchased after the MSVS for use by the Reg Force? Did that ever come to fruition?

After the MSVS MilCOTS, there was the MSVS SMP. Those are in service now.

I believe the LSVW is still in service?

…

Were the HLVW ever replaced with something newer?

The Logistic Vehicle Modernization winner was announced several months ago. A common family of vehicles will replace LSVW and all heavy trucks (HLVW, SHLVW, & HESV) over the next few years. The LSVW replacement (LVM-Light) will be about the size of an MLVW, and there will be too few of everything (without contract options to even get near 1 for 1 replacements).

 

[suffolkowner]

Okay folks, let me apologize beforehand for asking a question that may have a readily available answer...

Right around 2015 or 2016, I heard pretty constant chatter about the CAF getting serious about modernizing it's logistics vehicle fleets.

When I was in, we had the MilCot (Milverado) for unit level whipping around, the LSVW which looked like it was a piece of s**t when it came out of the factory, and we had the MLVW. (There were some logistics vehicle fleets purchased for the Afghan mission, but I'm not including those here)

So in the last 10 years, where are we currently at in terms of vehicle modernization?

...

I believe units are still using the MilCot Milverado?

I believe the LSVW is still in service?

I know a lot of reserve units had their MLVWs replaced by the much larger and more capable MSVS...

Wasn't there supposed to be another fleet of trucks purchased after the MSVS for use by the Reg Force? Did that ever come to fruition?

Were the HLVW ever replaced with something newer?



Sorry to ask, it just seems like this project has dragged on for ages now. Just wondering where we are at in regards to our logistic vehicle fleets?

After the MSVS MilCOTS, there was the MSVS SMP. Those are in service now.

The Logistic Vehicle Modernization winner was announced several months ago. A common family of vehicles will replace LSVW and all heavy trucks (HLVW, SHLVW, & HESV) over the next few years. The LSVW replacement (LVM-Light) will be about the size of an MLVW, and there will be too few of everything (without contract options to even get near 1 for 1 replacements).

I heard that the first Zetros are supposed to arrive this year

this is what i have for whats going on

LSVS-2879-1022-Zetros-2026
MSVS-???-1300-Navistar-2011
MSVS-SMP-???-1587-Mack-2021
HSVS-1212-512-Zetros-2026
AHSVS-86-----Zetros-2026
HESV-59-------Zetros-2026
ERC-???-85-Rheinmetall-2027
LUVW-1061-425-???-2026
LUVW-SMP-1159-1500-Roshel/Armatec/AMGeneral/Oshkosh
NGFV-???-65-Oshkosh/Thales/GDLS
LFE-TMP-???-100/300-GMC-2024

​

 

[CBH99]

I heard that the first Zetros are supposed to arrive this year

this is what i have for whats going on

LSVS-2879-1022-Zetros-2026
MSVS-???-1300-Navistar-2011
MSVS-SMP-???-1587-Mack-2021
HSVS-1212-512-Zetros-2026
AHSVS-86-----Zetros-2026
HESV-59-------Zetros-2026
ERC-???-85-Rheinmetall-2027
LUVW-1061-425-???-2026
LUVW-SMP-1159-1500-Roshel/Armatec/AMGeneral/Oshkosh
NGFV-???-65-Oshkosh/Thales/GDLS
LFE-TMP-???-100/300-GMC-2024

​

Thank You for taking the time to break down those numbers

Yikes...

Some fleets are going from basically 'none in reliable service' to over a thousand...

And some fleets look like they are getting cut in half roughly...yikes yikes yikes

...

Well on the bright side, the CAF will have new logistics fleets across the board for a while. (I mean MSVS aren't really new anymore, but the ones in ResF service don't seem to be driven too hard or too often)

And also on the bright side, the CAF will be forced to UOR an expanded fleet or a whole new fleet of 'something' should we find ourselves in the middle of a hot hissy fit somewhere...

(Not exactly ideal, but forces the government to pony up and get us nice kit due to embarrassment. Just like A-Stan.)

 

[CBH99]

After the MSVS MilCOTS, there was the MSVS SMP. Those are in service now.

The Logistic Vehicle Modernization winner was announced several months ago. A common family of vehicles will replace LSVW and all heavy trucks (HLVW, SHLVW, & HESV) over the next few years. The LSVW replacement (LVM-Light) will be about the size of an MLVW, and there will be too few of everything (without contract options to even get near 1 for 1 replacements).

Glad to hear the MSVS SMP finally came online and is in service now

Not gonna lie, it felt like that project had dragged on for so long it kinda fell off my radar

 

[suffolkowner]

Thank You for taking the time to break down those numbers

Yikes...

Some fleets are going from basically 'none in reliable service' to over a thousand...

And some fleets look like they are getting cut in half roughly...yikes yikes yikes

...

Well on the bright side, the CAF will have new logistics fleets across the board for a while. (I mean MSVS aren't really new anymore, but the ones in ResF service don't seem to be driven too hard or too often)

And also on the bright side, the CAF will be forced to UOR an expanded fleet or a whole new fleet of 'something' should we find ourselves in the middle of a hot hissy fit somewhere...

(Not exactly ideal, but forces the government to pony up and get us nice kit due to embarrassment. Just like A-Stan.)

the LSVS replacement numbers seem shockingly low to me
then we have 4 different heavy truck manufacturers outfitting our logistics fleet which seems strange if not wrong
the Navistars are coming up on 15 yrs. Too early for a replacement plan? Add 10 yrs for replacement and you are looking at 25yrs? Opportunity for consolidation?

 

[CBH99]

the LSVS replacement numbers seem shockingly low to me
then we have 4 different heavy truck manufacturers outfitting our logistics fleet which seems strange if not wrong
the Navistars are coming up on 15 yrs. Too early for a replacement plan? Add 10 yrs for replacement and you are looking at 25yrs? Opportunity for consolidation?

I couldn't agree more with each one of your points.

You'd think they would have included replacements for the Navistars in this project, knowing how long it takes for projects to see completion...

 

[suffolkowner]

I couldn't agree more with each one of your points.

You'd think they would have included replacements for the Navistars in this project, knowing how long it takes for projects to see completion...

next time lol!

LVM was started in 2019 too early i guess

 

[PrairieFella]

Anyone have any insights on LUV? No updates for a long time now. With the rapid pace some projects seem to be moving lately, I'm wondering if there's any movement on this. 2030 IOC is nutty.

 

[Rifleman62]

2030 IOC is nutty.

Yes, but is the Cdn military way.

 

[PrairieFella]

Yes, but is the Cdn military way.

I look at the very real wins the RCN and RCAF are getting these days and I'm happy for them but man, shit is grim from my perspective.

 

[Kirkhill]

Moving this discussion back into its designated ruts.

pardon me, but it is a purpose built system. Just because the frame comes from Ford doesn't lessen the utility of the system nor does it instantly place the homebuilt label on it. It is as the article said the most common vehicle in Ukraine. The why for that is probably a simple matter of economics. If I have a constrained budget and need as many vehicles as possible to provide a reasonable amount of protection it is a logical choice. And who is the better judge? Ukraine has tried every western vehicle on the used car lot. They love the Swedish product and the Roshel the Lav not so much. They don't refuse them but I don't think they have ordered any either.

We could/could we use a thousand or two to fulfill the light part of the LSVW vs the 500 Zetros?

So we would have a fleet of Ford F550s or Dodge 5500s for utility purposes with some portion of them uprated and armoured?

Separate from the specialty fleets?

I think so?

Plan is for 1500 LUV-SMPs right? and 500 LUVs for the reserves that they can pretend are LUV-SMP.
500 LVM light which are not actually light and short of the 1333 LSVS we had and way short of the 2879 we started with

Cheap and available are some reasons for Ukraine buying them, but also the donations and color of money used for them are very important. It also doesn’t mean that any other nation that isn’t in the same boat should follow suit.

The same issues occur with the Lenco Bearcat and other conversion methods.
It isn’t uncommon to any standard chassis system that is then attempted to be adapted to an armored system by adding a conversion kit.

Same for Logistics vehicles that get add ons as opposed to being purpose built.

You may notice that I’m not a fan of armor conversions for commercial vehicles.
There is only one place where I am okay with them, and that is for low visibility armor roles where a dedicated armored vehicle isn’t a good idea.

Unless you start from scratch you are going to have a lot of holes, or weak spots, they may only be small, but mostly they tend to allow flammable liquids where they really shouldn’t be.

Too often crews of those vehicles are not informed of their actual protection and armor levels.

Now as far as the Senator goes, they do keep improving the design and increasing the protection. It’s also getting more expensive, and less and less a Ford 550 built up, but a dedicated armored vehicle with some commercial parts. Which removes a lot of the benefits for some users of having a 550 chasis/power train.

That starts to get into the JLTV role from ‘Last War’.

From an economic standpoint point - of you think the vehicle may be in contact, get a real armored vehicle, and if they aren’t planned for that just get a ton of stock commercial vehicles and right them off if they take a stray round.

 

[PrairieFella]

At this point, we just need something. Senators, GWagons, JTLV, Hawkeye, whatever. We're at the point that the LUVW are self-divesting and the Milcots started that process years ago. The institutional paralysis on this project is a sight to behold. 13 years for fucking trucks.

 

[KevinB]

At this point, we just need something. Senators, GWagons, JTLV, Hawkeye, whatever. We're at the point that the LUVW are self-divesting and the Milcots started that process years ago. The institutional paralysis on this project is a sight to behold. 13 years for fucking trucks.

Not just something, you need a lot of different things.

It shouldn’t be that hard at all.

I mean FFS, just go buy 5k of something off a US DoD Contract as a place holder