Updated Army Service Dress project

[FSTO]

The only criticism I get wearing those pants is that I look too good.

 

[Eaglelord17]

We have sucked roayally in regards to women’s service dress. if the women finally get something made for them I’m all for it. I’ve bought my own pants because the Logistik ones are bloody horrible.

I am of the opinion that there should not be women’s service dress. One standard for all, proper equality. Clothes fitting poorly is a separate issue from having different uniforms based off sex.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

When I was in , I bought myself a nice set of Peter Storm raingear because I couldn't stand the damn CF canary suits. Peter Storm's were Comfy, dry, breathable and you almost couldn't tell the difference from 10 feet away. No one bothered me, but no one else was willing to spend the $$$ (then $350) to get a set.

 

[markppcli]

I am of the opinion that there should not be women’s service dress. One standard for all, proper equality. Clothes fitting poorly is a separate issue from having different uniforms based off sex.

Well we are a species with sexual dimorphism, in a society that has a cultural history of gendered clothing. So on one count we have cultural perceptions, which is why we even have service dress to begin with, to address. We also have the fact that women’s bodies are shaped differently to men’s. Trying to shove everyone into one thing does no one any favours - even if it’s appealing for some kind of culture war win.

Re male vs female clothing this applies to even casual clothing. That’s why men and women tend to take off their shirts with completely differently - anatomy and cultural influences.

 

[RedFive]

Well we are a species with sexual dimorphism, in a society that has a cultural history of gendered clothing. So on one count we have cultural perceptions, which is why we even have service dress to begin with, to address. We also have the fact that women’s bodies are shaped differently to men’s. Trying to shove everyone into one thing does no one any favours - even if it’s appealing for some kind of culture war win.

Re male vs female clothing this applies to even casual clothing. That’s why men and women tend to take off their shirts with completely differently - anatomy and cultural influences.

The RCMP has been through this as well. In 1974 when the first female troops were permitted at Depot, they wore a completely different uniform with a skirt, pumps, white turtle neck and hat. Pistol and handcuffs were carried in a purse in both service and operational dress. It wasn't until 1990 that women were permitted to wear the iconic red serge, stetson, Strathcona boots and breeches.



Currently for mess dress, all members have the option of pants or a skirt.

Even this photo is a little dated as our operational uniform has changed since, and is in the process of changing as we speak. The grey shirt is being replaced by a blue shirt that is similar to CAF OTW shirts, where the portion covered by body armour is moisture wicking fabric, and the collar and sleeves resemble a dress shirt. The shirt will come in female and male "cuts".



In typical federal government procurement fashion, this project has taken nearly a decade between RCMP management stalling and project favoritisms (more than one dinosaur around lamenting the loss of grey shirts), PSPC limitations and the chosen contractor being unable to actually supply the shirts in quantities needed for a full rollout. So we're starting in the smallest divisions on the east coast, and the hope is that in about two years they'll have enough for the entire force.

On the plus side, we stopped trying to force the one size fits all idea on members for pants and boots, and have a BOOTFORGEN type of system where you buy your own and expense them to the Force once a supervisor checks they're actually appropriate.

Now if I could only BOOTFORGEN myself a pistol...

 

[Eaglelord17]

Well we are a species with sexual dimorphism, in a society that has a cultural history of gendered clothing. So on one count we have cultural perceptions, which is why we even have service dress to begin with, to address. We also have the fact that women’s bodies are shaped differently to men’s. Trying to shove everyone into one thing does no one any favours - even if it’s appealing for some kind of culture war win.

Re male vs female clothing this applies to even casual clothing. That’s why men and women tend to take off their shirts with completely differently - anatomy and cultural influences.

One job, one uniform, one standard. We don’t need sexist clothing options because culturally we have a history of gendered clothing. We also have a cultural history of women being forbidden from serving but we pay no mind to that today.

What people wear or do on their own time is their business, but in uniform they should all be in the same outfit at the same time, it is why it is called a uniform.

 

[markppcli]

One job, one uniform, one standard. We don’t need sexist clothing options because culturally we have a history of gendered clothing. We also have a cultural history of women being forbidden from serving but we pay no mind to that today.

Cultural norms matter because we actually want our members to enjoy wearing service dress on some level, to find it comfortable for their bodies, and to think they look professional.. possibly even good.

What people wear or do on their own time is their business, but in uniform they should all be in the same outfit at the same time, it is why it is called a uniform.

Yes our uniforms are filled with individual adjust to reflect the accomplishments of the member, their position, the unit and formation they belong to. Members of units wear different coloured berets, different cap badges, hell some even wear kilts while others do not.

Your argument comes down to “wear one thing because one employer.” However as I’ve pointed out no only does service dress have multitudes of individual distinction built into it, clothing has always been made differently for men and women for both physiological and cultural reasons.

 

[quadrapiper]

Yes our uniforms are filled with individual adjust to reflect the accomplishments of the member, their position, the unit and formation they belong to. Members of units wear different coloured berets, different cap badges, hell some even wear kilts while others do not.

For the sake of pot-stirring, replacing the skirt with a kilt as a member's discretion No. 1/2/3 item would be a very tidy way of canning gender questions.

 

[WestIsle]

The RCMP has been through this as well. In 1974 when the first female troops were permitted at Depot, they wore a completely different uniform with a skirt, pumps, white turtle neck and hat. Pistol and handcuffs were carried in a purse in both service and operational dress. It wasn't until 1990 that women were permitted to wear the iconic red serge, stetson, Strathcona boots and breeches.

View attachment 96033

Currently for mess dress, all members have the option of pants or a skirt.

Even this photo is a little dated as our operational uniform has changed since, and is in the process of changing as we speak. The grey shirt is being replaced by a blue shirt that is similar to CAF OTW shirts, where the portion covered by body armour is moisture wicking fabric, and the collar and sleeves resemble a dress shirt. The shirt will come in female and male "cuts".

View attachment 96034

In typical federal government procurement fashion, this project has taken nearly a decade between RCMP management stalling and project favoritisms (more than one dinosaur around lamenting the loss of grey shirts), PSPC limitations and the chosen contractor being unable to actually supply the shirts in quantities needed for a full rollout. So we're starting in the smallest divisions on the east coast, and the hope is that in about two years they'll have enough for the entire force.

On the plus side, we stopped trying to force the one size fits all idea on members for pants and boots, and have a BOOTFORGEN type of system where you buy your own and expense them to the Force once a supervisor checks they're actually appropriate.

Now if I could only BOOTFORGEN myself a pistol...

The dry cleaners at Depot will be put out of business by this lol

 

[RedFive]

The dry cleaners at Depot will be put out of business by this lol

I suspect the drill unit at Depot will continue to insist of sharp creases leading to demand for dry cleaning

 

[Kilted]

We have whole 'regiments' of people who will wear plaid skirts for fun.

It's only a shirt if you wear something under it.

 

[Kilted]

For the sake of pot-stirring, replacing the skirt with a kilt as a member's discretion No. 1/2/3 item would be a very tidy way of canning gender questions.

Or everyone wears a kilt. Also, women do not have the option of wearing a skirt in Scottish regiments. Everyone wears the same thing.

 

[quadrapiper]

Or everyone wears a kilt.

That works too.

Minimally, replacing the skirt (horribly cut, auth for all but entirely femme) with the kilt (fits basically everyone, more or less universal) would be a great service to everyone who wants to wear something other than trousers.

 

[frixiedust]

Now that we are wearing operational dress in the NCR, the usefulness of No. 3 orders of dress has diminished greatly.

Perhaps, if the CAF wants to continue to have No 3 orders of dress, they should modernize it away from being No 1s, but without medals. Perhaps make it from comfortable and low maintence materials, in a comfortable cut.

I don't know if Operational dress at NDHQ etc. is going to stay. Some have hinted that it was because of a lack of uniform availability. Given than Logistik is scaling back on DEU because the new Army DEU is arriving in 2026, that's probably why. And they couldn't just say Op Dress for Army because the RCAF and RCN would get their noses out of joint that they still had to wear DEU. You'll see 3B return to the NCR when the new ones are issued.

Now, are they comfortable? Remains to be seen. I think we should redesign our DEU from scratch. The concepts Logistik presented at CANSEC the past two years, from what I saw searching the web, are major throwbacks to WWII British Army uniforms. Put the concept for the "women's" pocketed DEU beside a common picture of Queen Elizabeth II (then Princess), and you'll see a damn near identical tunic. I think we need to consider what an independent Canada with its own identity would dress like rather than putting Millennials and Gen Z etc. in historical outfits. I want to see a modernised dress uniform, emphasis on modernised.

 

[frixiedust]

Should be one order of dress which is the same no matter the sex.

The problem with that line of thinking is that the "one" order of dress is the men's. And women and gender diverse people are supposed to just be okay with dressing in a "mannish" uniform (Enloe, 2000, p. 263). Let's imagine the women's order of dress as the "one" order and see if the men like that. I suspect they will not. And this speaks to the deeper and systemic issues within the CAF and within society where we have decided male is default or unisex and everyone else is "the exception" (Taber, 2005, p. 292).

 

[frixiedust]

The RCMP has been through this as well. In 1974 when the first female troops were permitted at Depot, they wore a completely different uniform with a skirt, pumps, white turtle neck and hat. Pistol and handcuffs were carried in a purse in both service and operational dress. It wasn't until 1990 that women were permitted to wear the iconic red serge, stetson, Strathcona boots and breeches.


Currently for mess dress, all members have the option of pants or a skirt.

Even this photo is a little dated as our operational uniform has changed since, and is in the process of changing as we speak. The grey shirt is being replaced by a blue shirt that is similar to CAF OTW shirts, where the portion covered by body armour is moisture wicking fabric, and the collar and sleeves resemble a dress shirt. The shirt will come in female and male "cuts".


In typical federal government procurement fashion, this project has taken nearly a decade between RCMP management stalling and project favoritisms (more than one dinosaur around lamenting the loss of grey shirts), PSPC limitations and the chosen contractor being unable to actually supply the shirts in quantities needed for a full rollout. So we're starting in the smallest divisions on the east coast, and the hope is that in about two years they'll have enough for the entire force.

On the plus side, we stopped trying to force the one size fits all idea on members for pants and boots, and have a BOOTFORGEN type of system where you buy your own and expense them to the Force once a supervisor checks they're actually appropriate.

Now if I could only BOOTFORGEN myself a pistol...

The RCMP has a legacy very deeply steeped in colonialism (NWMP) and the Boer War (where the NWMP became a big part of the Lord Strat's). So, it is very unsurprising they would have all the same issues with gendered and colonial dress that the military does. But they didn't magically solve the issues of gendered dress by letting the women wear the same stuff as the men but with a different tailoring option to accommodate their bodies. The thing all the police and military organisations neglect to address is that the dress isn't magically unisex. It's men's uniforms modified for women. Male is still a gender. Male doesn't really equal unisex no matter how many people try to argue that it is. Form and function need to be based on all users, not just binary gender identities, and not based only on male standards of professionalism.

 

[frixiedust]

How many JTF2 members have you met?

more than a few, including colleagues who went to the hill. It's not something I've made up. My boss pointed it out at the airport once. He said there's a very specific look that stands out, especially if you know the look.

 

[frixiedust]

Before the Bay closed I picked up a couple of pairs of black Haggar pants. They don't wrinkle nearly as quickly as the issued pants, are stretchy, look contemporary , and are comfy. I wear them all the time. The only drawback is that the belt loops are designed for multicoloured belts some of the army folks wear.

This kind of swapping out of mil kit for civ kit is possible with black... I don't see too many dress pants in CF Rifle Green. And I doubt there are many that will precisely match the olive or khaki or whatever shade their using on the new CA DEU. Personal problem, I know.

In the not long ago, women in the CAF had to write a specific request either through the chain or directly to a guy at DSSPM to request the men's pants be added to allotment just to get pants with a flat front and belt loops (imagine being issued a CF belt and having zero items with which to wear it). It was when I got the men's pants that I learned the belt loops and button side weren't the only differences. The women's pants have this terrible liner that causes chafing in the winter and heat rash in the summer (and if it's very hot, any perspiration causes it to stick to your leg and ride up). The front pockets on the men's have a black facing on the outer seam that the women's don't have. This one is such a subtle difference that I'm really interested to ask LU why they did it. Typically, facing is for reinforcing a fabric and finishing a seam. Is the idea that men use their pockets, so they need to be built better, but women are still supposed to be using a purse?

This connects to the wild differences between the men's and women's Oxford. Any men or people who wear the men's Oxford can chime in exactly how often their heel pops out the back of their shoe versus every woman I know who wears Oxfords saying this was a common problem when walking in the women's version.

 

[dapaterson]

I think we need to consider what an independent Canada with its own identity would dress like rather than putting Millennials and Gen Z etc. in historical outfits. I want to see a modernised dress uniform, emphasis on modernised.

 

[frixiedust]

Are you suggesting some version of denim?