Author Topic: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?  (Read 13992 times)

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Offline Watchdog-1

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Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« on: September 21, 2014, 18:40:40 »
There's a guy on my wing that was jump qualified in the army and switched to the air force. Now he wears his jump wings on his flight suit where pilot wings would go. Seems a little strange to me but nobody says anything. I'm curious, are people allowed to do this? Could he wear his jump wings on his air force DEUs?

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2014, 18:44:51 »
Short answer: yes; it is a CF qualification badge.
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LightFighter

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« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 19:03:45 by LightFighter »

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2014, 19:15:43 »
Jump wings do not get worn on a flight suit.  This was a trend back in 2000-2001 at YMJ.   Direction came down that the wings could be sewn on the left shoulder, just below the aircraft specific patch - not on your chest where only proper aircrew wings are affixed.

Riggers are usually an Army MOSID at SAR units - they wear their wings on their DEUs only. 
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 19:17:45 »
Riggers are Sup Techs, and therefore can be any DEU.
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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2014, 19:24:28 »
I stand corrected then.
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Offline aequitas

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2014, 19:42:56 »
Maybe someone can answer this one. When I Vot'd and switched DEU army to air I was told I wasn't allowed to wear my cross rifles (which I do re qualify for every year) because it is an army only Qual. Is this true? I haven't found any ref for this. Seems weird this one badge is left out of the mix

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2014, 19:46:38 »
Maybe someone can answer this one. When I Vot'd and switched DEU army to air I was told I wasn't allowed to wear my cross rifles (which I do re qualify for every year) because it is an army only Qual. Is this true? I haven't found any ref for this. Seems weird this one badge is left out of the mix

From the CFOSP
Quote
QUALIFICATION BADGES
24.   All Land Force personnel of the rank of Sergeant and below who are assigned the C7, C7A1, C7A2, or the C8 as their personal weapon, and who achieve the marksman’s score on the PWT 3, are authorized to wear the crossed rifles with crown badge in accordance with A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions.
25.   All Land Force personnel of the rank of Sergeant and below who are assigned the C7, C7A1, C7A2, or the C8 as their personal weapon, and who achieve 80% on the PWT 2, are considered a first class shot and are authorized to wear the crossed rifles badge in accordance with A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions.

From the dress pam
Quote
Army marksmen of the rank of Sergeant and
below who have qualified as a first class shot or
marksman, based on annual classification results for
the service rifle, are authorized to wear the
appropriate marksmanship badge, embroidered in CF
gold on rifle green melton cloth, on service dress
jackets (see Figure 3-6-3 and Annex F). If the
member does not re-qualify as a first class shot, or
marksman within one calendar year, the badge shall
be removed.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 19:49:28 by LightFighter »

Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2014, 20:00:22 »
Somewhat surprised that the marksmanship badges are single-service; know the RN, and I think the RCN, had a marksman qual back in the day. Seems the sort of thing that merits recognition in all services; in fact, especially in those where the skill isn't commonplace.

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2014, 20:33:45 »
Some other element units don't even shoot PWT-1 or NBCD train annually - only done on year one of arriving to the unit.  I saw the Browning once in 1999 and then again in 2011.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 00:09:18 »
I stand corrected then.

As well on the part about badges on flight suits.  I will post the applic policy tomorrow (Div Orders and a CFAO).  There are no "aircrew wings" patch on flight suits, it is a technically a skill badge.  How else would AeroMedavac, flight attendants / Stewarts, flight surgeons and loadmasters were their badges?  None of them wear aircrew wings.

* edited for bad spelling, grammar and detail.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 19:06:16 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 00:11:07 »
There's a guy on my wing that was jump qualified in the army and switched to the air force. Now he wears his jump wings on his flight suit where pilot wings would go. Seems a little strange to me but nobody says anything. I'm curious, are people allowed to do this?

Yes.

Quote
Could he wear his jump wings on his air force DEUs?

Yes.  Until he earns his pilot wings, he will wear them on the left above medals/ribbons. 

After he/if he gets Pilot wings, he will then have to change the jump wings to the mini-metal wings and wear them on the left breast pocket, centered between the bottom of the pocket and the top of the pocket flap. 
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 17:33:03 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 09:58:01 »
Somewhat surprised that the marksmanship badges are single-service; know the RN, and I think the RCN, had a marksman qual back in the day. Seems the sort of thing that merits recognition in all services; in fact, especially in those where the skill isn't commonplace.

The RCN most defiantly had marksman "identifiers".  It has always puzzled me as well as to why the RCN and RCAF don't allow this.  From an RCN member perspective I would, personally, like to see the marksman badge and a NBP badge be created for our (RCN) DEUs. 

http://members.shaw.ca/jollytar/Ratings/RCNtrade4s.jpg

(Left side, Second From Top, Below and Left Of the CPO Cap Badge)
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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 10:09:12 »
How else would AeroMedavac, flight attendants / Stewarts, flight surgeons and loadmasters were their qualification badges? 
Those are all Aircrew positions - hence the reason why they wear their Wings on their left.  Half-wings are worn on the right.  Jump Wings do not count as either and are not worn on the RCAF zoom suit.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2014, 17:06:52 »
I'll have to disagree, but based on Div Orders and CFAO as follows (highlights are mine):


1 Cdn Air Div Orders, Vol 1, 1-006  Operational Dress

Definition

1.     For the purpose of this order, Operational Dress is defined as "Flying Clothing" and the Light Weight Combat Clothing (LWCC).

Purpose

2.   This Order establishes the 1 Canadian Air Division (1 Cdn Air Div) policy governing the regulations and details for the wear and badging of operational dress for Air Force personnel.

General

3.   To ensure a uniform standard exists for the wear and badging of operational clothing, all Air Force personnel shall conform to the standards established in this Order

6.   Flying Coveralls/Clothing:

b.   Skill Badge.  A cloth-embroidered badge, located on the left breast at the same level as the Name Tape.  CF issue Flying and Specialist Skill Badges denoting the wearer’s current primary skill, is the only accepted standard
-----------------------------------------------------------

* in the CFAO below, Flying and Specialist skill badges are broken down into (1) AIRCREW BADGES (2) FLIGHT CREW BADGES (3) SPECIALIZED FLIGHT CREW BADGES and SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES. 

** don't forget the specific wording in Para 6(b) above


CFAO 55-10 -- THE CREATION AND AWARDING OF CANADIAN FORCES FLYING AND SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES

BADGE AWARD -- CRITERIA

1. A Canadian Forces (CF) flying or specialist skill badge shall be authorized only for employment that requires CF members to:
a.   fly in an aircrew/flight crew position and perform duties associated with the badge (this would include parachuting);


FLYING BADGES -- GENERAL
2. A CF aircrew badge may be awarded to a member of the Regular or Reserve Force after successful completion of formal CF training or a CF qualifying course for pilots, navigators, airborne electronic sensor operators, search and rescue technicians, or flight engineers.


FLIGHT CREW BADGES

10. A member of the CF Regular and Reserve Force is entitled to the award of the basic flight crew badge on the basis of occupation or occupational specialty employment when the member is held on unit strength against an annotated establishment position requiring active and continuous airborne duties as follows:

b.   Occupational Specialities

2.   Flight Attendant (OSQ Code FY)-- a member of any occupation when employed continuously in the occupation specialty duties of a flight attendant.
3.   Flight Steward (OSQ Code FX)-- Cook (MOC 861) or Steward (MOC 862) when employed continuously in the occupational specialty duties of a flight steward.


SPECIALIZED FLIGHT CREW BADGES

16. Members are eligible for specialized flight crew badges in the following categories:

a.   Flight Surgeon Badge
b.   Flight Test Engineer Badge
c.   Loadmaster Badge.
e.   Aeromedical Evacuation Badge.


SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES -- GENERAL
17. A CF specialist skill badge may be awarded to a CF member of the Regular or Reserve Force after successful completion of formal CF training or a CF qualifying course for parachutists, submariners, clearance divers, ship divers, combat divers, or explosive ordonance disposal (EOD) members.

PARACHUTE BADGE
19. A CF parachute badge may be awarded to a member of the Regular or Reserve Force after successful completion of formal CF training or a CF qualifying course for parachutists.

21. A student parachutist is eligible for the award of the parachute badge upon successful completion of the CF parachutist course.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a Plt is pre-Wings, but is a qual'd CF parachutist, they can wear that Specialist Skill Badge as it is the "wearer's current primary skill" until such time as they earn their Wings (aka Aircrew Badge IAW the CFAO) which then becomes their primary skill.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying the Div Orders and CFAO are correct.   8)




« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 17:11:31 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2014, 17:20:45 »
I don't know that I'd trust a pilot who was keen to show off his "look I know how to jump out of a moving airplane" badge...
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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 01:46:53 »
Sorry to make you put so much effort EITS into this thread.

CWOs trump dress regs all the time - hence the "no jump wings on your zoom suit" rule when I was going through YMJ. That being said, the CAD rules are constantly being re-written and may not have been so clear back in 2000. 
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 02:00:06 »
I don't know that I'd trust a pilot who was keen to show off his "look I know how to jump out of a moving airplane" badge...

 ;D

My dad's got a great story from Lahr about a CF jet pilot who'd had a few planes crap out on him, and who then hit a German Cessna in mid air with predictable results. An RCR officer well into his cups in the mess on a Friday night remarked to the zoomies that their boss was only one short of his German jump wings. Still dad's favourite fight.
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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 08:11:08 »
I don't know that I'd trust a pilot who was keen to show off his "look I know how to jump out of a moving airplane" badge...
Conversely, the more pilots I know, the more I prefer jumping out; it would be nice to see the pilot concurs.   :nod:

Also, to borrow civie terminology, you're not jumping out of a perfectly good plane, you're jumping into perfectly good air; that's why it's called "skydiving" not "plane-leaving"   ;)


/tangent   (Army dress regs are beyond my concern [there are RSMs/Adjts to get worked up over those]; I've got no place commenting on zoomie fashion)

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 15:54:01 »
Sorry to make you put so much effort EITS into this thread.

CWOs trump dress regs all the time - hence the "no jump wings on your zoom suit" rule when I was going through YMJ. That being said, the CAD rules are constantly being re-written and may not have been so clear back in 2000.

No effort.  I had to look into something similar before that had the same 2 ref's.

2000, it is very possible the Div order was the complete opposite.  That version is the current one (21 Dec 2013) that was rewritten recently to include the red & white mini-flag on our flight suits (that it doesn't seem most people know about... ;D).

Meh.  The 3Ds are more NCO type stuff to worry about anyways...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 16:09:56 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Togakure

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Re: Can you wear cross-element qualifications on your DEUs?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2014, 21:29:45 »
I saw a YMJ course video on youtube recently that showed one of the guys in training wearing a skill badge on the left side of his flight suit. It was the AEC/AC Op badge. Is this something that is being authorized now, or do you guys think its a YMJ specific thing?