Author Topic: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too  (Read 55725 times)

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jollyjacktar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2015, 16:27:05 »
Consider the procurement gong show in the US military driven by the desire of each branch to have its own unique cam pattern.  Blueberry cam (a la USN) is useless operationally, unless you are doing battle in a Pop Tart factory.  If RCN pers are working in an environment where they need actual camouflage (and not just a working dress that can be satisfied by overalls) then they should use the CF issued CADPAT.

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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2015, 16:34:46 »
Suspect part of the branding issue might be the fluidity of RCN Mk. 1-MARCOM(green)-MARCOM(DEU)-RCN Mk. 2; the general public might have a dim notion of what a "sailor" looks like, but it's likely RCN Mk. 1 or USN-esque, this being compounded by geography and years of semi-invisibility on the part of the CF. Have been asked, in NCDs without the jacket, if I'm a police officer, and in DEU (pre-curl, though I doubt it makes a difference) if I'm a fireman.

From a PR perspective, ops in Afghanistan haven't helped either.

Offline FSTO

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2015, 19:41:25 »
From what I gather, what is proposed to go is the # 3 Service Dress order.  Office and shipboard dress will be NCD, unless you're required to be wearing DEU.  But as I say, it's all scuttlebutt at the moment.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!
I absolutely hate the idea of NCD for regular wear ashore. JFC it is for use when you are at sea doing the business. We do not go to action stations, fight fires , or board ships when we are in the office environment. This is an absolutely stupid idea.

jollyjacktar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2015, 20:08:35 »
LOL, I don't imagine this idea will gain any traction.  There are too many Officer types out there such as yourself FSTO who abhor the thought.  Still, it's fun to see your heads spinning ala Regan from the Exorcist. 

As I said earlier though, I will have the option in Ottawa and I will go, NCD.

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2015, 20:48:43 »
I think camouflage on a naval uniform looks rather silly.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2015, 20:52:22 »
I think camouflage on a naval uniform looks rather silly.

Would you prefer Prison Orange (Safety reasons for Man Overboard and all)?
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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2015, 21:17:55 »
But we all know that the purpose of camouflage is to not be seen.

See how well it works?
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Offline FSTO

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2015, 21:32:03 »
LOL, I don't imagine this idea will gain any traction.  There are too many Officer types out there such as yourself FSTO who abhor the thought.  Still, it's fun to see your heads spinning ala Regan from the Exorcist. 

As I said earlier though, I will have the option in Ottawa and I will go, NCD.

Actually I'm afraid there are too few officers who abhor the thought of NCDs as office wear. Too many young officers today seem to be the type who would be comfortable walking downtown in their pajamas. Slobs are the lot of them I say.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2015, 21:40:07 »
May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies do as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating.  The only uniform that is instantly recognized as Navy is the whites, (thank you Top Gun).  Even DEU's look like civi pilot uniforms.  If they brought back square rig that would surely help for NCM's.  Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Edited for spelling and grammar...

To be fair, a lot of Canadians don't know we have a Navy.  Recently checked CGCS to get the right NSN for the clothing stores in Ottawa; I think the list price for NCDs is closer to $600 for the pants, shirt and jacket; I think it's criminal that anyone riding a desk is wearing those, particularily when there always seemed to be a shortage of common sizes everytime I went to clothing stores in Halifax.  Also, the NCDs fit like a burlap sack with room for two around the waist, and while comfortable, look sloppy.  S&Ps look pretty sharp, are reasonably comfortable, and anytime you deal with civilians, you look professional.  And probably cost about $25 for the shirt and pants.  Seems like a no brainer to me.

At the end of the day, if someone can't tell you are in the Navy when you have a great big shiny anchor in the middle of your hat badge and Canada on your shoulder, I don't think NCDs will make a difference.

jollyjacktar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2015, 21:47:42 »
Actually I'm afraid there are too few officers who abhor the thought of NCDs as office wear. Too many young officers today seem to be the type who would be comfortable walking downtown in their pajamas. Slobs are the lot of them I say.

NCD don't have to be sloppy.  If they're clean, pressed and the boots polished properly they can look professional enough.  It's not a fashion show.  I have seen many as well who are not presentable in S&P.

Offline FSTO

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2015, 22:08:02 »
NCD don't have to be sloppy.  If they're clean, pressed and the boots polished properly they can look professional enough.  It's not a fashion show.  I have seen many as well who are not presentable in S&P.

Certain folks can look like a bag of crap in an Armani suit I agree. But as pointed out above, cost alone should preclude NCD's for use in shore billets. If I had my way, NCD's would be worn only by personnel who are drawing sea pay.
For a site that constantly decries the wasteful spending of limited defence funds, you would think that the unnecessary wearing of expensive kit in offices would draw howls of rage from the anti buttons and bows crowd.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2015, 22:17:50 »
I think it depends on your build; I'm tall and lanky, so the 46" wide shirt going straight down looks awful jammed into my 32" waist, and the various pleats, folds etc to try and get it tapered never last more then a few minutes of walking around.  At least with the various DEUs I can get the shirts tailored.  The new shirts are better though, but still a lot of room for additional 'command presence'.

They are a great uniform for ship board use though; the fire protection really works well and will make a massive difference if you get stuck in a bad spot and need to evacuate through a fire.  There is videos of the testing they did on old used pairs that had gone through significant washes, exposure to POLs etc and was still pretty effective at resisting direct flame for limited periods, which is what it's supposed to do.

They are pretty expensive though; I'd prefer they be limited to ships and other limited units like the DC school where they are required, so you don't have sailors exiled to CubeLand running them through unecessary wear and tear rather then personnel on ships, as we know they won't actually increase any budget to buy more  NCDs if someone changes their unit dress policy on a whim. 

Offline donaldk

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2015, 22:27:00 »
FSTO, I am one of those naughty officers that prefers NCDs despite being posted ashore at an office.  Often I have to go into Irving (which is a mess), some ship getting the MHP mods, and in quick fire meet with a contractor's senior management in Dartmouth - which involves a visit on the shop floor (rendering most times N3's unsafe as per their regs).  The time in my office suite is minimal juggling emails, putting out fire ensuring the warehouses are happily humming for FELEX, and setting up meetings/VTCs.  I have done the change parade thing between the two and it eats up a considerable amount of time on some days.

Now if I was posted as an Admiral's flag officer... well I would certainly be at the proper order of dress for the situation without question, and burning through my Logistik points like mad  >:D .

If the navy does away with N3s, they certainly need to up the quality on the N5s, I still have problems with buttons randomly falling off, hems coming undone, and collars fraying with the latest rev of NCDs under gentle usage (when I was a stoker I blew through so many NCD sets with harsher working conditions).  The only issues I have with my N3s is they yellow in no time at the collar, fit like a mumu, and are a PITA to keep white (sure I can bleach them every wash, which will wear them out much faster).  The keeping white problem is why I only have my DEU heavy jacket in a custom size, otherwise I would be non-stop at the tailors getting replacements.

To end off with the crowd, thanks for the rumor mill smoke but until it hits the dress committee's minutes or an order is out - it is rumor.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2015, 22:39:05 »
I am going to fully support FTSO here.

We must bear in mind that  Navies, unlike the Army or Air Force, have a diplomatic role to play in peace time and in their actual daily work. As a result of the fact that we constantly meet and work around other nations on the neutral ground that is the sea, and the fact that  we meet one another, host one another and "represent" our own countries in the eye of foreign nations on a continual basis, ALL nations have developed a code of conduct and of image projection in the world. And that image does not include the shore based personnel looking like a bunch of mechanics going to work (my apologies to the Mar Eng's of this world). I ask you to look at pictures of the shore based naval personal of any nation and I guarantee you will see that in 99.99% of there cases, they re working and appearing in the equivalent of our DEU's - not in their shipboard rig, regardless of how tacky that shipboard dress' camouflage look is (for the USN ).

And I fully agree that Navies don't need camouflage pattern clothing.

Also, just a question here, when did OOD become part of the Damage control rapid response ????? If the OOD is getting down and dirty fighting the fire or flood, he/she is not doing his/her job of thinking the problem through and being the overall coordinator.

Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2015, 01:18:32 »
The incredible cost of NCDs and CADPAT, and the multiplicity of working environments that're too dirty or active for No. 1, too "business" for coveralls, and too threat-free for NCD or CADPAT, suggest a need for a pan-CF working uniform.

Sturdy pants, perhaps with cargo pockets; a sturdy shirt; and a coat on the jean jacket/CANEX jacket/old corduroy-collared coat spectrum. Allow mix and match with No. 1 and 5 footwear, more serious outerwear, accoutrements, and headdress as the situation requires/command dictates/the member chooses. Make the pants and coat out of whatever cotton blend Carharrt uses, and the shirt out of something comfortable and hard-wearing. Either dye it per element (per practice with battledress) or go with tan/khaki; both the CA and RCN have used that colour in the past; not sure about the RCAF - quite sure the RAF did, though.

Issue it to everyone that doesn't actually need combat-ready or aircrew kit.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2015, 06:17:06 »
To be fair, a lot of Canadians don't know we have a Navy.  Recently checked CGCS to get the right NSN for the clothing stores in Ottawa; I think the list price for NCDs is closer to $600 for the pants, shirt and jacket; I think it's criminal that anyone riding a desk is wearing those, particularily when there always seemed to be a shortage of common sizes everytime I went to clothing stores in Halifax.  Also, the NCDs fit like a burlap sack with room for two around the waist, and while comfortable, look sloppy.  S&Ps look pretty sharp, are reasonably comfortable, and anytime you deal with civilians, you look professional.  And probably cost about $25 for the shirt and pants.  Seems like a no brainer to me.

At the end of the day, if someone can't tell you are in the Navy when you have a great big shiny anchor in the middle of your hat badge and Canada on your shoulder, I don't think NCDs will make a difference.


Agreed, fully, and it applies equally to army combat uniforms in HQs.

Sixty years ago everyone knew what a Canadian military uniform represented. That had nothing to do with the shape, colour or cut of the uniform; it was because just 70 years ago one person in 12, about one youngish man in four had worn one of those uniforms in WWII. By the 1970s our national institutional memory was wearing down ... the men and women who had worn uniforms still knew who we were, even though the colour and cut of our uniforms had changed, but their parents were dead. Now there are precious few of those who who wore uniforms in WWII alive ... we, and the people we serve are disconnected and the uniform style is not the problem ... in fact I'm not certain it even is a problem.
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2015, 07:50:06 »
I am going to fully support FTSO here.

We must bear in mind that  Navies, unlike the Army or Air Force, have a diplomatic role to play in peace time and in their actual daily work. As a result of the fact that we constantly meet and work around other nations on the neutral ground that is the sea, and the fact that  we meet one another, host one another and "represent" our own countries in the eye of foreign nations on a continual basis, ALL nations have developed a code of conduct and of image projection in the world. And that image does not include the shore based personnel looking like a bunch of mechanics going to work (my apologies to the Mar Eng's of this world). I ask you to look at pictures of the shore based naval personal of any nation and I guarantee you will see that in 99.99% of there cases, they re working and appearing in the equivalent of our DEU's - not in their shipboard rig, regardless of how tacky that shipboard dress' camouflage look is (for the USN ).

And I fully agree that Navies don't need camouflage pattern clothing.

Also, just a question here, when did OOD become part of the Damage control rapid response ????? If the OOD is getting down and dirty fighting the fire or flood, he/she is not doing his/her job of thinking the problem through and being the overall coordinator.

The OOD in home or foreign port is one of the members of the RRT and actively conducts rapid response on a fire before heading to the command postion. This has been occuring for as long as I can remember.
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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2015, 08:03:47 »
Honestly I never heard of the Salt and Peppers going away, it wasn't in the dress minutes I recently read and you may think it would be if slated to go away. I like Salt and Peppers, when I do need to wear them they look sharp and protray a professional look. As for NCD's I think they are fine the way they are, if the public can't see the anchor we wear on them and make the connection we are Navy then they need to smarten up. Seems to me a nice set of fire resistant coveralls at sea should be in order, probably be less money then replacing a $600 set of NCD's and probably last longer as long as they don't source them from logistik.

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Offline Dipstick

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2015, 09:02:18 »
The OOD in home or foreign port is one of the members of the RRT and actively conducts rapid response on a fire before heading to the command postion. This has been occuring for as long as I can remember.

I did an exchange with the RNZN for a while - in that Navy, the OOD (who was typically dressed in full uniform with jacket and tie) would head straight to a command position and make pipes. They described this to me as the "proper commonwealth way", and were quite surprised to hear that we did it any differently. We must have conducted DC similarily at some point in the past.

Based on said exchange, and on what I know of some of HM's other Naval Services, we're already fairly relaxed in our dress standard. As another example, I once asked to wear Salt and Pepper vice Whites during the summer in NZ; I was told this was a "Rating's rig", and not formal enough for officers to wear (again, cue the shock when I told them we consider it fairly "dressed up"). We also had to be in DEU whilst entering and leaving harbour, and the boatswains all had a spare set of whites/medals that they wore while line handling.

All that to say, I think we've managed to strike a pretty good balance between common sense and formality here in the RCN. To full-on remove what is essentially our business casual dress, and have us sit at desks, attend meetings, and conduct shore business in ill-fitting blue work shirts and cargo pants is pushing it, IMHO.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 09:05:22 by Dipstick »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2015, 09:37:07 »
Actually I like the navy league uniform, practical and you look like a sailor



Are you talking about the chap on the left of the pic?  Seems like there is a shortage of nametags and ab-masters at that location.   :blotto:
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2015, 09:45:14 »
Are you talking about the chap on the left of the pic?  Seems like there is a shortage of nametags and ab-masters at that location.   :blotto:

To their discharge, and also to their credit, Navy League "officers" are volunteer parents, not members of the CF, not even of the Cadet Instructors Cadre.

I don't know if the Air Cadets or Army Cadets have anything similar to the Navy League Cadets: These are younger kids of an age that is below the age at which they can joint the Sea Cadets Corps. It is a fully volunteer and fully independent movement more akin to the cub scouts. The CF provides no support whatsoever to these corps except, sometimes but not in all cases, providing access to armouries/Naval reserve units or agreeing to co-locate the NL corps with an actual sea cadet corps.

Offline captloadie

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2015, 09:52:30 »
I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2015, 09:56:19 »
I did an exchange with the RNZN for a while - in that Navy, the OOD (who was typically dressed in full uniform with jacket and tie) would head straight to a command position and make pipes. They described this to me as the "proper commonwealth way", and were quite surprised to hear that we did it any differently. We must have conducted DC similarily at some point in the past.

Based on said exchange, and on what I know of some of HM's other Naval Services, we're already fairly relaxed in our dress standard. As another example, I once asked to wear Salt and Pepper vice Whites during the summer in NZ; I was told this was a "Rating's rig", and not formal enough for officers to wear (again, cue the shock when I told them we consider it fairly "dressed up"). We also had to be in DEU whilst entering and leaving harbour, and the boatswains all had a spare set of whites/medals that they wore while line handling.

All that to say, I think we've managed to strike a pretty good balance between common sense and formality here in the RCN. To full-on remove what is essentially our business casual dress, and have us sit at desks, attend meetings, and conduct shore business in ill-fitting blue work shirts and cargo pants is pushing it, IMHO.

Interesting, because my RAN colleagues said that they are closer to us in the dress department (DPNU at sea vice Service Dress, etc.) 

Then again, the Aussies (RAAF and Army, perhaps Navy?) have a "DEU 3B with Medals" ceremonial dress that they wear for ANZAC Day, while we sweat in our DEU 1s.
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Offline Dipstick

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2015, 10:11:07 »
I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

Yes, RCN personnel in RCAF/CA units where operational clothing is worn are to wear NCD. Something about protecting Naval identity.

However, inside the RCN proper, DEU 3B (salt and pepper) is almost always dress of the day for PO2 and up. A dress policy change like the one being discussed here would not impact sailors like the ones you work with; rather, it would be a pretty fundamental change for Chiefs, POs, and Officers on the coasts.

Interesting, because my RAN colleagues said that they are closer to us in the dress department (DPNU at sea vice Service Dress, etc.) 

My only experience with the RAN was one day in an ANZAC on a cross-deck. I didn't depart with them (I was boat transferred) so I didn't see what they wore leaving. Quite a few officers were wearing whites with shorts when I got there, though. We wore NCD/GWD at sea in the RNZN too, we just weren't allowed to put it on until we were away from shore.

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2015, 10:14:28 »
The person that came up with blue camouflage for sailors, should be taken out, shot, revived and then shot again.