Author Topic: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)  (Read 34262 times)

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Offline Brihard

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The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:

Yup, this. There is definitely no lack of thirst to investigate or prosecute this at any level, whether within the investigative teams, the police/intelligence services as a whole, the crown prosecutors' offices, or within the government / cabinet / PMO. Frnakly I'm sure our government would love nothing better right now than a couple of slam dunk prosecutions of Daesh returnees, because they quite rightly fear the impact this issue will have on the election.

We are, in the end, a nation ruled by law, however. I as a police officer am constrained in my job by our system of laws and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms - and quite rightly so! It's correct and appropriate than in a free society I, as an agent of the state possessed of considerable coercive powers, should have to justify my actions. If I want to investigate someone - just like any of you - who may be driving drunk, or accused of assault, dealing drugs, or making threats or committing a fraud or what have you - there are things that might make my job potentially easier but that the law doesn't allow me to do because they would trample your rights. I cannot make you confess to a crime, I generally can't force my way into your home and arbitrarily look for evidence, I can't just take your phone off you and have it searched for evidence without a warrant granted by a judge based on my grounds outlining a reasonable suspicion of an offense. I cannot arbitrarily listen in on your phone calls or seize and analyze your computer. We have mechanisms to do all these things but we have the judiciary as an oversight. I cannot burn certain investigative techniques in court proceedings. I cannot disclose the identity of confidential informants whose lives may be at risk from retribution by criminals. And these are all extraordinary simplistic comparisons in the realm of straight criminal investigations. Add international intelligence gathering and sharing arrangements into the picture, and holy hell does it get tough to use information. There is a whole sector within our national security infrastructure that wrestles with taking security intelligence (e.g., from CSIS, CSE, or foreign allied agencies) and handing off clean tidbits to the RCMP to say 'we can't tell you why, but look at this guy' and to try to build prosecutable criminal cases from there.

On the face of it it's easy to say 'Well OK, but drunk driver versus ISIS terrorist Come on, be reasonable". Yup. We can always pick two examples far removed from each other for comparison. Where it gets much harder is trying to discern the truth when someone purportedly travels overseas to a contested area to visit family, or to engage in humanitarian work, or what have you, and then on the flip side is accused of acts of terrorism. Are they giving money to Daesh, or to a legitimate charity? Might they be blissfully unaware of the difference? Where do we draw the line between combatants that are on the 'good guy' side and those that are not in such a conflict?

All that said- I'm by no means coming to the defense of these Daeshbags. I think among the first steps in effective solutions include better joint targeting and intelligence sharing, precision munitions, and where applicable sound application of the principles of marksmanship. We don't need to worry about prosecuting those dead as combatants on the battlefield. But one way or another we have to face the facts that some will return, and that the waters in many cases will be extremely muddied. It's very easy indeed to say all these people should be investigated, charged, convicted, and thrown in jail. I'm absolutely with everyone else on that part of the principle of this thing, for sure. But the rule of law matters, it's what keeps us the good guys and protects all of you from the dumb crap I could otherwise do in the course of efforts to enforce the law, and whether we like it or not those same protections do not end at some arbitrary line in the sand. I wish things were easier than this, but they're not.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline reverse_engineer

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I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:

 :salute:









Offline reverse_engineer

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Good post Brihard. You are correct (unfortunately) in so many ways, but it also shows why as a country we are weak and vulnerable.

We did have a choice to do more to kill these guys over there. Now we will suffer.

As for Jihadi Jack...you gotta love the article where it shows a picture of him doing the ISIS salute, and the CBC caption mentions his Dad saying he went there to help refugees:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-isis-jihadi-jack-1.4868495

WHAT A JOKE!

I threw my bling from IMPACT into a bin somewhere. I've had to resist doing worse. Disgusted I wasted some of the best years of my life on it.

 :not-again:






Offline YZT580

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If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.

Offline dapaterson

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If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.

Except that was not the law.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Hamish Seggie

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We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...

Damn rights. 3540 or bust.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Jarnhamar

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I totally believe our law enforcement people are onboard and don't want these POS in our country but the vibes our government is putting out just doesn't reflect that. Quite the opposite. They seem more about welcoming these wayward and lost souls in the name of diversity and inclusion.

Mass graves are still being discovered, ISIS is still bombing people (6dead 40 injured yesterday), ISIS is still kidnapping and murdering people.  Even if we don't have video evidence of someone committing a crime let's not take the risk and give people who even just "joined ISIS" a refuge in our country. I'm comfortable and happy to keep them out and if we're forced to allow them to come here then I think them being caught with Isis or in the vicinity of is enough grounds to nail them with terrorism charges.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 07:23:58 by Jarnhamar »
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline daftandbarmy

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Except that was not the law.

Exactly. If we don't like this stuff happening, then we need to change our laws.

However, I've seen enough terrorists receive social services benefits from the country that is fighting against them to know that the 'long game' sometimes includes doing what seems basically schizo at the time.

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline reverse_engineer

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I'm willing to bet if any vigilante justice happens to one of these assclowns that the gov would direct more resources to convicting vigilantes than they spent trying to convict the terrorists.


Online MarkOttawa

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Useful article:

Quote
Canada’s Foreign Fighter Problem is No Surprise
https://www.lawfareblog.com/canadas-foreign-fighter-problem-no-surprise

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline ontheedge

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My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

Offline Brihard

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My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

Infantry here. What point is it that you’re making?
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline garb811

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My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.
Ontheedge:  I get it.  You're new and have a million questions and are full of what we refer to as piss and vinegar.  But at this point I'm going to advise you to take a few steps back and stop making so many posts based on assumptions.  You really aren't doing yourself a lot of favours right now and you are going to learn a lot more by letting some of these threads play out naturally than you will by what you are doing.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

I’d caution you, as you’re an individual with no experience as a CAF member, to be more diplomatic and less judgemental with your thoughts towards how you perceive things are being done in certain areas. This was a polite suggestion, as some of your posts can be interpreted negatively.
“I’m so sick of people thinking they can just waltz into my office when I’m obviously listening to music in 4/4.”

Offline Hamish Seggie

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My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

What’s your point?

Maybe sometimes tough people dispense controlled armed violence on those our government has deemed enemies. Got a problem with that?
Infantry for over 35 years here.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

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Offline ontheedge

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I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Okay folks, let’s move on with the discussion. The user was inadvertently made aware of his tone by two DS posting the same advisement at the same time, plus he’s had the chance to now view how his comments were received. Good learning opportunity, now time to get back on track.

Staff
“I’m so sick of people thinking they can just waltz into my office when I’m obviously listening to music in 4/4.”

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Specifically with regard to the topic of returning ISIS fighter and supporters returning to Canada, the more efficiently the infantry and others are permitted to do their job in the battle space, the less fighting in the courtrooms lawyers will have to do.

IF the target is legit and the *targeting process is followed (I won't speak to 'efficiency and timeliness' of that process sometimes  ::)), I don't see a problem.  Unfortunately, this Jihad Jack never ended up in someone's crosshairs so here we are debating his disposition and of those like him.

*OnTheEdge,  you'll hopefully be pleasantly surprised that Legal Officers are involved in the targeting/engagement "stuff" was well with advising on ROEs, and advising Commanders on strike/no-strike decisions. 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 00:41:23 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.

Oh yes in jest. This a??clown jihadi might be responsible for the deaths of a number of innocent people.
By all means let’s bring the poor misunderstood urchin to Canada to cure him of his bad practices.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.

Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.

Quote
A B.C. man whose Facebook posts promoted ISIS and praised lone wolf terrorist attacks has been ordered deported from Canada.

The Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada has ruled that Othman Hamdan of Fort St. John is a "danger to the security of Canada" and is therefore inadmissible.

"While Mr. Hamdan has no history of violence, he has praised lone wolf attacks, actively promoted the Islamic State, disseminated instructions on how to commit attacks and seems fascinated with the extreme violence of the Islamic State demonstrated by possessing Islamic State videos depicting gruesome murders," IRB member Marc Tessler wrote in an Oct. 18 decision.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline kratz

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Thank you Jarnhamar.

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It's more challenging to find agreement."
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Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2019, 16:30:50 »
Remember Pamir Hakimzadah mentioned here?

This from Global via Twitter ...
Quote
Pamir Hakimzadah was sentenced Thursday to 6 months for trying to join ISIS, in addition to the time he has spent in custody since his June 2016 arrest ... He will be eligible for parole in 3 months. Upon release he must undergo religious counselling and stay away from terror supporters and materials ... Because he pleaded guilty, little was publicly aired about the case, but Global News has obtained a summary of the investigation, and it raises questions. The story: ... How does a terrorism offence with a 10-year maximum become 3 months? Sentenced imposed: 4 yrs, 1 mos. Pretrial custody: 792 days x 1.5=3 years, 3 months credit. Days jail was on lockdown: 250=four months credit. Remaining sentence=6 months x .5 parole eligibility Total: 3 mos. ... But the judge did impose 3 years probation with several conditions: - religious counseling, - psychotherapy, - interview w/probation officer every 6 months on effects of de-radicalization, - no passport, weapons, terror literature etc...

As for the other person mentioned in the above-linked post, Rehab Dughmosh, she got 7 years earlier this month for trying to head to ISIS country and for an attack in a Scarborough Canadian Tire.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 16:34:34 by milnews.ca »
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Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2019, 19:43:54 »
A little more from the Public Prosecution Service of Canada ...
Quote
Today in the Ontario Superior Court, Pamir Hakimzadah was sentenced to six months in jail in addition to three years and seven months credit for the time he has already spent in custody after pleading guilty earlier this month to leaving Canada to participate in the activity of a terrorist group, contrary to section 83.181 of the Criminal Code.He also receivedthree years of probation requiring adherence to a deradicalization program.

On October 22, 2014, Mr. Hakimzadah left Canada and travelled to Istanbul, Turkey with the intention of entering Syria to join ISIS. He was detained by Turkish officials before he could enter Syria and was deported back to Canada. He was subsequently charged with the offence following an RCMP investigation.

According to the agreed statement of facts, Mr. Hakimzadah had exhibited increasingly radical Islamic beliefs prior to his departure, speaking in favour of, or in defence of ISIS. He viewed online ISIS videos and posts, as well as a website on how to get into Syria ...
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Offline milnews.ca

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Another couple of Canadian dual citizens identified as "guests" of Kurdish forces in Syria ...
Quote
... Safraz Ali, a 39-year-old dual Trinidadian and Canadian citizen, says he was recruited by fellow Trinidadians and joined the Islamic State in 2015 “to help the Syrian people.” He explained, “I didn’t seek out [IS execution] videos. I was against all of that. They sent me to Iraq to fight. I refused and fled to Syria on a bus. I had trauma training. I would go out after coalition bombings and pick up wounded children and take them to the hospital.” He ended up in Al Bab, where “people were so kind they would give you the shirts off their backs.” After Turkish troops captured the town in 2016 he moved on to Raqqa. “People were much harsher, crueler there.”

Ali is rail thin. His eyes are glazed. He seems weak. “I have terminal Crohn’s disease,” he said. “They don’t have proper medicine here. I have rectal bleeding, dizzy spells and blurry vision.” He clutches an inhaler in his hand. “Asthma,” he explains. He says he is scared but far more concerned for his wife. It emerges that he is married to Kimberley Gwen Polman, 46, a dual US and Canadian citizen he met in Raqqa who was profiled by the New York Times.

They were married in 2016 and made plans to flee together soon after. They were in touch with Polman’s family and a Canadian official who handled such cases, he claimed. The pair was ratted out by spies and briefly imprisoned in Raqqa and continued to plot their escape once they were freed. “We led the life of fugitives,” he said, describing a harrowing odyssey that took the couple from Raqqa to Mayadeen and then Hajin. They finally turned themselves over to SDF forces a little over a month ago. “We desperately wanted to have children. Kimberley had five miscarriages,” he said. “I spend all my time thinking about my wife.”

I feel sorry for him and offer reasons he might have joined the Islamic State. His father, a Christian, and his mother, a Muslim, were divorced. Had he had a rough childhood? His Gandhi-like demeanor evaporates. “You are psychologically profiling me,” he said with a cold, hard look. It's time to end the conversation. The minder handcuffs Ali and leads him away.

I'll also slowly bring in other posts/threads here to offer up a "one-stop window" of open-source info on Canadians playing on the ISIS team.  I'll leave the threads dealing with specific, individual court proceedings stand alone for now.
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.

Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.
 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE

His appeal ended up in his favour so far despite this strong statement by the Federal Court Judge:
“[1]  Mr. Hamdan is an unmitigated liar. One must wonder if he has uttered one truthful word since he came to Canada in 2002. His refugee claim was accepted in 2004. The basis thereof was that he had converted to Christianity from Islam and faced a serious risk of persecution should he be returned to Jordan.” 

...

“[17]  Although the evidence in this case may be somewhat scanty, there is some evidence to suggest that a misrepresentation had indeed taken place. In context, scanty evidence can support an inference to find as a fact that an event actually occurred (Whirlpool Inc. v Camco Inc., 2000 SCC 67 (CanLII), [2000] 2 SCR 1067. The only evidence from Mr. Hamdan was his denial. The record clearly shows that his word is not to be trusted so that the presumption he is telling the truth is rebutted (Maldonado v. Canada (M.E.I.), [1980] 2 FC 302 (C.A.)).
[18]  For these reasons, judicial review is allowed and the matter is referred back to the IRB for redetermination before a new member, both with respect to religion and criminality.”

His misrepresentation: he may be a drug dealer at one time, and since Hamas frowns on wealth created by illegal acts not controlled by them, his life might be at risk in Jordan.


   Canada (Citizenship and Immigration) v. Hamdan, 2018 FC 1177 (CanLII), <http://canlii.ca/t/hw8gh>, retrieved on 2019-03-17

- mod edit to make link work -
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 16:17:19 by milnews.ca »
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