Author Topic: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad  (Read 17443 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chief Engineer

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 741,067
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,976
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2018, 15:22:58 »
Man, that ship looks like she's toast. Anyone here got any insight on what salvage/recovery/refit would look like for something like this? I assume the probably near total ingress of salt water will necessitate a pretty thorough gutting of systems?


I wouldn't say there's much salvageable, any salvage effort will now be complicated by the weather. I would say it will be weeks to get her up. Every piece of equipment, wiring, insulation is now compromised by SW. I would be very surprised if they can save anything.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Offline Fishbone Jones

    MSC -5620.

  • "Some people will only like you if you fit inside their box. Don't be afraid to shove that box up their ass."
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 276,762
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,579
    • Army.ca
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2018, 17:06:47 »
Does the path of the freighter indicate normal activity? I would have thought a freighter would just go directly between two ports. Is there a reason they just went around in circles?
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 42,355
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,641
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2018, 17:32:02 »

I wouldn't say there's much salvageable, any salvage effort will now be complicated by the weather. I would say it will be weeks to get her up. Every piece of equipment, wiring, insulation is now compromised by SW. I would be very surprised if they can save anything.

I read on one report that she also had a full load of munitions onboard which, according to Wikipedia includes 32 RIM-162 ESSM, 8 x Naval Strike SSM, unk number of String Ray torpedoes, unk number of depth charges, ammo of 76mm Oto Melara cannon and 4 x remote weapon systems, plus ships and aviation fuel.
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 235,925
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,424
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2018, 17:52:12 »
I read on one report that she also had a full load of munitions onboard which, according to Wikipedia includes 32 RIM-162 ESSM, 8 x Naval Strike SSM, unk number of String Ray torpedoes, unk number of depth charges, ammo of 76mm Oto Melara cannon and 4 x remote weapon systems, plus ships and aviation fuel.

Just enough to destroy the career of one ship's Captain then?
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Underway

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 20,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 896
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2018, 09:27:07 »
We had a Norwegian watchkeep aboard an MCDV once.  All he cared about was if the contact was drawing left or right.  It seemed like no concern about anything else in contact avoidance.  No reports to the CO.  Wondered why we had so many people on the bridge (helm, POOW, 2OOW, OOW, lookout), not including the MCR watchkeeper.  On a frigate there are even more ppl, add a throttle, Navcom, and sometimes a second lookout and 3OOW. 

Just part of the true Canadian naval doctrine I guess.  Maximize warfighting while minimize risk.   Those may be inverted in priority at times.

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 171,200
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,051
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2018, 10:10:36 »
We had a Norwegian watchkeep aboard an MCDV once.  All he cared about was if the contact was drawing left or right.  It seemed like no concern about anything else in contact avoidance.  No reports to the CO.  Wondered why we had so many people on the bridge (helm, POOW, 2OOW, OOW, lookout), not including the MCR watchkeeper.  On a frigate there are even more ppl, add a throttle, Navcom, and sometimes a second lookout and 3OOW. 

Just part of the true Canadian naval doctrine I guess.  Maximize warfighting while minimize risk.   Those may be inverted in priority at times.

Was he normally posted on one of the Skjold-class boats?  If so, I can understand since they go so quickly that by the time the report goes out, the situation would have resolved itself.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Underway

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 20,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 896
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2018, 10:17:36 »
Was he normally posted on one of the Skjold-class boats?  If so, I can understand since they go so quickly that by the time the report goes out, the situation would have resolved itself.

Yes, and that's exactly what he told us.  It's not like we don't do the same thing sometimes, "Sir see that speedboat? *points to speedboat*  Drawing left, safe." may be all you can get out before wheel over or another contact needs reporting...

The difference mainly was their reporting.  The bridge watchkeeper is expected to not bother reporting things to the CO most of the time, as if you are qualified you are supposed to be competent.  If you are reporting contacts the CO will start questioning your competence...

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,356
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2018, 12:48:24 »
Same in the CCG, Capt has standing orders of how to react, normally the Mate on duty works within whatever those orders are without bugging the Captain. the mate may call the Captain up if things are going squirrelly, although good Captains often sense that beforehand and show up on the bridge just prior to being called.   

On another forum, I have heard that the watch changed minutes before the collision, which might explain the lack of awareness.

As to the Salvage ops,  criticisms are coming out already, someone noted that the cables where secured incorrectly with the bulldog clamps.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aldrimer.no%2Fsjoforsvaret-ville-spare-penger-pa-bergingen%2F

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 208,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,934
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2018, 13:52:00 »
In addition to radar and AIS (even though NATO 313 wasn't TX'ing until post-crash), don't modern FFGs and other similar class warships have some decent IRST capabilities, so the bridge crew would have some solid visual cues to assist their SA, especially in tight confines at night?

Regards
G2G

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,356
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2018, 14:18:34 »
Radar, radio, windows, binoculars, home waters so you know there is an active oil terminal with ships calling that they are outbound from said terminal......

If there was a watch change and traffic was within a near CPA, the off going OOW should have stayed till he was satisfied that the new OOW had proper situational awareness, no matter how much you long for some food and the bunk.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 208,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,934
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2018, 16:11:25 »
Radar, radio, windows, binoculars, home waters so you know there is an active oil terminal with ships calling that they are outbound from said terminal......

If there was a watch change and traffic was within a near CPA, the off going OOW should have stayed till he was satisfied that the new OOW had proper situational awareness, no matter how much you long for some food and the bunk.

Particularly 0.0nm CPA. :nod:

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 42,355
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,641
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2018, 18:08:24 »
Just some questions regarding terminology. Some I get: OOW - Officer of the Watch, but whats a POOW, 2OOW, MCR watchkeeper, or 3OOW.  CPA - Closet Point of Approach?
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 171,200
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,051
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2018, 18:14:49 »
Just some questions regarding terminology. Some I get: OOW - Officer of the Watch, but whats a POOW, 2OOW, MCR watchkeeper, or 3OOW.  CPA - Closet Point of Approach?

POOW:  Petty Officer of the Watch
2/3OOW:  2nd and 3rd Officer of the Watch
MCR:  Machinery Control Room
CPA:  Closest Point of Approach
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 42,355
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,641
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2018, 20:57:19 »
POOW:  Petty Officer of the Watch
2/3OOW:  2nd and 3rd Officer of the Watch
MCR:  Machinery Control Room
CPA:  Closest Point of Approach

Thank You. Any day I learn something new is a bonus.
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 58,459
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,062
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2018, 21:05:54 »
.

If there was a watch change and traffic was within a near CPA, the off going OOW should have stayed till he was satisfied that the new OOW had proper situational awareness, no matter how much you long for some food and the bunk.

Generally speaking, a component OOW wouldn't take the watch in they middle of a complex situation. The guys who's on watch has watched the situation develop and has a better fix on it. It can be dangerous to try and force a turnover.

One time in the Persian gulf, my relief showed up to the bridge as I was manoeuvring to avoid a dumb cargo ship while trying to stay out of Iranian TTW. As soon as I avoided that ship, another ship got in our way, and another one after that. The oncoming OOW just stood quietly at the back of the bridge watching and listening for probably 20 mins past when we're supposed to have turned over, but I could not catch a break to turn over the watch to him. Eventually he was there watching long enough that he didn't need a formal turnover, he was as aware of the situation as I das getting watching for 30 mins. So despite being in the middle of a bunch of crap, he just came up to me and said "alright I got this". We high fived and I left the bridge without doing the formal turnover.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,356
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca

Offline DetectiveMcNulty

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 58,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,487
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2018, 15:01:37 »
So despite being in the middle of a bunch of crap, he just came up to me and said "alright I got this". We high fived and I left the bridge without doing the formal turnover.

Awesome.  :nod:

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 208,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,934
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2018, 15:21:50 »
In Norwegian, but some more graphics and pictures

 https://www.nrk.no/hordaland/xl/dette-er-_sola-ts_-og-_helge-ingstad_-kollisjonen-1.14289883?fbclid=IwAR2jk3jMr8oLxdoVt_fs8xHlCh8lOIe5wggzsu2HeBt41hXPf-MeopWimj4

Amazing that sailors down in the engine room weren’t badly injured!  The damage in the starboard quarter is incredible.

Regards
G2G

Offline Spencer100

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 9,150
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 343
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2018, 20:18:34 »
Nice website. I like the tech.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 208,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,934
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2018, 10:42:45 »
Nice website. I like the tech.

My thoughts exactly...very well done! :nod:

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,356
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2018, 10:38:43 »
Apparently a heavy lift crane is on site, the wreck is still moving quite a bit and there is worry she will break free and slide into deeper water (40m I think)

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,356
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2018, 23:57:52 »
A rendition of the damage she received.


Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 205,125
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,479
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2018, 01:03:13 »
I’m no shipologist, but that looks like if it ain’t a write off, it’s the closest thing to one.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 448,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,441
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2018, 06:32:44 »
I’m no shipologist, but that looks like if it ain’t a write off, it’s the closest thing to one.
Don't downplay yourself.  Plenty of people think you are full of ship.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,356
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2018, 11:14:47 »
Looking at the area in GE, the waterway where they collided, is the almost widest part, Likely they were returning to the naval base at Haakonsvern about 23nm to the south and through much more challenging waters.

location of the tanker terminal at Strue
 60°37'14.52"N   4°51'32.79"E


Location of navy base
 60°20'11.70"N    5°14'18.09"E