Author Topic: COMMENTARY: Canada’s military procurement legacy somehow gets even stupider  (Read 6222 times)

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Offline Dimsum

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Spoiler alert - it's about pistols.

Quote
If you’re feeling particularly lazy today, you can basically get the full benefit of this column by just finishing the next fragment of a sentence: the Canadian government is epically screwing up yet another military procurement and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for letting it happen.

Seriously. That’s it. If you’re slammed for time, you can move on. The rest of what’s about to follow is just maddening detail.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4753482/canada-military-pistols/?fbclid=IwAR0RymH-MQAa6Dc8cPHsO7TqMKQTb5FVbPt7YkW-6SWQvVK0ZPqh0aOig8c
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Online MilEME09

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To me the 10 year thing on all these major procurement's screams the GoC doesn't want to do any major projects in it's mandate, pistols should be an easy one to trial and select a winner, heck im sure deliveries would be quick too! this is a lack of political will to get it done, combined with an bureaucracy designed to keep people employed rather then get work done.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Maddeningly hilarious article lol
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Offline Dimsum

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To me the 10 year thing on all these major procurement's screams the GoC doesn't want to do any major projects in it's mandate, pistols should be an easy one to trial and select a winner, heck im sure deliveries would be quick too! this is a lack of political will to get it done, combined with an bureaucracy designed to keep people employed rather then get work done.

Well, it took some body bags and media shaming to get the Iltis taken out of Afghanistan and replaced with actual armoured vehicles on roads known to be rigged with bombs...
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Furniture

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It's good to see Canadian media turning their attention to the failure of a procurement system we have, maybe Canadians will start to pay attention.

Offline Dimsum

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It's good to see Canadian media turning their attention to the failure of a procurement system we have, maybe Canadians will start to pay attention.

Starting?  Matt Gurney, amongst others, have done that for years.  It's usually buried somewhere on Page 45 but it's there.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline FSTO

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I was told yesterday by one of the civilians in our project that the reason why all Departments have to get their projects approved at TB is to slow down the spending of money. There is zero consideration toward capability and needs (this is why the status of water and housing at reserves are such a shyte show) its all about slowing down the flow of money.

Offline medicineman

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... this is a lack of political will to get it done, combined with an bureaucracy designed to keep people employed rather then get work done.

This...oh, and the thing where it has to be made in Canada by the highest (read only) bidder.  This should be easy - call H&K, FN, Sig Sauer, Glock, Colt Canada and maybe Barretta and say  "What is your most popular military and police sidearm?  How much for off the shelf 25K worth?  Meet us on range "X" in Gagetown in two weeks with 20 of your recommendations and enough ammo/mags to sink a ship.  Lastly, are you willing to allow a Canadian firm (preferably in Quebec) to maintain these under license or is there a Canadian subsidiary that these can be bought from, just to keep the GoC happy?"  The CAF then needs to CFTPO the range, range staff, and a number of small arms experts from the various branches that will be using these things, and put the weapons through their paces.  At End Ex, compare notes and issue recommendations; contracts could be done within a few weeks after. 


Of course, the government will buy the gun that wasn't recommended, because Colt Canada or Bombardier will get a license for it, redevelop/Canadianize it over a few years, then eventually get them out, at greater expense.  Meanwhile, the people at the pointy end are still using BHP's with re-re-re-re-rebored barrels that might launch the bullet generally forward with enough speed to tickle someone on impact.

MM
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Offline FSTO

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The RCN has been using Sig Sauer pistols for years (since before 9-11). What has the RCAF been using? Is this just an Army problem?

Offline garb811

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The process for the replacement didn't "start" in 2016, it restarted in 2016. We went down this road in the 2008-2009 time frame as part of SARP 2, to the point of having a RFP out for final review by the pistol stakeholders if I recall correctly. Reason I remember it so vividly is because I was laughing at the combat arms insistence that a lanyard ring had to be included on the pistol...

Offline garb811

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The RCN has been using Sig Sauer pistols for years (since before 9-11). What has the RCAF been using? Is this just an Army problem?
It was a problem because Sig stopped making the P225 at one point which caused difficulty with procuring spare parts. Since then, Sig has recommenced making the P225 so I don't think that issue is as pressing.

It does make sense to go to one "fleet" of pistols though, rather than the Browning/P225/P226/... mashup that is out there now. If that happens, it is better to replace the P225 because at this point the earliest models are approaching the 25+ year mark, not to mention the "low" mag capacity.

Offline medicineman

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The RCN has been using Sig Sauer pistols for years (since before 9-11). What has the RCAF been using? Is this just an Army problem?

I think it's largely an Army thing...I went to Haiti in 2004 with my BHP being older than Dirt's Great Grand-Parents...I was happy I never had a jam with it and it struck the target I pointed it at on the range.  I was just as happy I never got into a fight with it though - I was concerned I'd need to throw it at someone if I wanted to cause maximal damage...

MM
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Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Dimsum

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The RCN has been using Sig Sauer pistols for years (since before 9-11). What has the RCAF been using? Is this just an Army problem?

I *believe* the fighter folks use something else (Sig?) but the rest use BHPs. 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Jarnhamar

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If you're worried about the browning not shooting when you want it to just load 9 rounds in the magazine.

Adding two dots of whiteout to the rear sight makes great homeade nightsights  ;D
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Offline Loachman

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Best comment so far:

Paul Meyer

Some nice folks nearby to us did a LOT of testing and came up with the Sig Sauer P320 as their preferred option. It comes in 9mm and .45. As a plus, the pistol comes in about 42 total varieties, so the Liberals can supply a dfferent version to each gender of soldier.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Are there any current procurement stories that are good news. What has worked out on time, in quantity and quality.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Are there any current procurement stories that are good news. What has worked out on time, in quantity and quality.

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Offline dangerboy

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Are there any current procurement stories that are good news. What has worked out on time, in quantity and quality.

The C19 Rifle (Ranger Rifle replacement) can be considered a success.
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Offline medicineman

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If you're worried about the browning not shooting when you want it to just load 9 rounds in the magazine.

Adding two dots of whiteout to the rear sight makes great homeade nightsights  ;D

I loaded 10...because I was usually only given 2 mags and 20 rounds anyway.  It fired fine like that. 

Dimsum - IIRC, the fighter jocks got P226's bought for them for Gulf War 1...they still holding those over?

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline garb811

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I loaded 10...because I was usually only given 2 mags and 20 rounds anyway.  It fired fine like that. 

Dimsum - IIRC, the fighter jocks got P226's bought for them for Gulf War 1...they still holding those over?

MM
P225s were initially bought for pilots and MP plainclothes pers to replace the .38 special Colts in that time frame with more being bought as time went on. I was told the decision to go with the 225 over the 226 was specifically due to the smaller size of the grip from the single stack as opposed to the 226s double stack.

P226s entered the system later for other folks...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 17:39:05 by garb811 »

Offline Brihard

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RCMP is also looking to replace their service pistol, the obsolescent S&W 5946. Both use 9mm. Both organizations are due for a ground up rethink on what characteristics are required for a duty sidearm (mechanical, safety, etc etc). There are a small number of pistol models popular for both police and military use. I see no compelling reason why a joint procurement couldn’t be at least considered to take advantage of economies of scale.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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I see no compelling reason why a joint procurement couldn’t be at least considered to take advantage of economies of scale.

Like just buy the US solution:

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-service-branches-buying-army-modular-handgun-system-2018-3

After all, it's a pistol.... not a fighter jet or something insanely expensive like that.
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Offline Haggis

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The CBSA is the only agency in North America currently using the Beretta PX4 Storm.  Those pistols are getting old and are no longer supported under contract by Beretta.   If they were to jump on the federal procurement bandwagon with other agencies that would make a sizable purchase for Canada likely resulting in a very good price. 

Glocks and Sig Sauers are quite popular with CBSA officers for personal use.
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Offline PuckChaser

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We can't even get DND procurement right, so the solution is to make it inter-agency rife with competing priorities and bureaucratic empire building? Remember, the service pistol replacement isn't a 10 year project; we released a statement of requirement I believe about 8 years ago that was so poorly worded (and designed for only a single manufacturer), it had to be pulled and the project started from scratch. It'll be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 years before we get a contract signed that's going to replace pistols we needed replaced 30 years prior.

It's also not an "Army" problem, unless people disown the RCAF and RCN pers who carry secondary weapons on CJOC deployments that are not Maritime/ATF-centric.

Offline dapaterson

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I was told yesterday by one of the civilians in our project that the reason why all Departments have to get their projects approved at TB is to slow down the spending of money. There is zero consideration toward capability and needs (this is why the status of water and housing at reserves are such a shyte show) its all about slowing down the flow of money.

In fact, all departments undergo an assessment of their ability to do things, on a scale of 1-4.  The higher your score, the better you are.  This is refreshed every few years.

Each project going forward is also assessed on a scale of 1-4 for complexity and risk.  Normally, a project score at or below your departmental score means your minister can approve it.  However, the TB ministers reserve the right to call forward files within your authority level.

The more shenanigans a department pulls, the lower their score, so the more often they will have to go forward to the TB ministers.  For a while DND's score was down to 2, meaning lots of things were being pushed up.  Add to that the fact that CAF compensation and benefits (less military judges) are set by the TB ministers and you end up with lots of files going to TB from DND.


Frequently DND files go astray when someone tries to channel a something to a preferred supplier, when there's rapid rotation in military project staff, when someone who knows nothing of the processes decides they can do things "faster", or when someone fails to do an adequate environmental scan.  If you're buying small arms, you're very likely going through the Munitions Supply Program.  Learn it and understand it, otherwise you'll waste a lot of time and effort and come back and redo the work.

Lots of external factors that cause problems as well, but Pogo Possum best described the fundamental problem with buying stuff for the CAF.
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