Author Topic: Meanwhile back at the perpetually offended tent/Infidel tattoo questions  (Read 10232 times)

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Online mariomike

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"deemed to be"   

It says,

Quote
could be deemed to be offensive

Could be to some, not to others.

You'd have to be kinda dumb to think than an 'Infidel' tattoo in the shape of a rifle isn't going to cross that threshold.

Have to wait for the results of the chain of command investigation,

Update:

Quote
CORRECTION, June 6, 2019, 1:30 PM. I was just contacted by Major Gough who told me the following. “I just realized I misspoke when I said we identified the sailor. We have not yet identified the sailor, but the chain of command is still investigating the matter.”
https://nsadvocate.org/2019/06/05/news-brief-halifax-navy-sailor-with-islamophobic-tattoo-now-being-investigated/






« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 14:01:23 by mariomike »

Offline Fishbone Jones

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So, if a definition of 'infidel' is the absence of religion, how hateful and offensive would it be to have a crucifix tattoo, a Star of David a crescent and star tattoo? Do they get a buy because they are organised religions.

Infidel, by definition sounds no different than athiest, by the same definition. Simply, no belief in religion.

Nobody appears to deem it offensive when a muslim calls a christian an infidel or kuffar. Do we demand that they remove the words apostate, kuffar and infidel from the Koran and their speech?

When we are called infidels, out of hate, the best way to take the power from the word is to make it your own. We have turned it into a source of acceptance and humour. Since the word has become mainstream, on t-shirts, hats, moral patches, whatever, the sting has been taken away. The word has lost its power for us and those that use it hatefully.

Well, except for some Timmy customer.

I am not throwing out my T-shirts, nor do I intend to take a flame thrower to the English language to satisfy someone being uncomfortable with words.
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Can we please stop skirting the fact that it’s not so much the word, in and of itself, that is causing the issue *all on its own* and/or what the definition of it is. It’s the fact that it’s written in combination with being the shape of an automatic rifle.

I personally don’t care one way or the other, but I’m not the one who placed a complaint, so whatever...

...But I’m pretty sure that if someone did the same thing using the word Gentile (which simply means ‘not Jewish’, so isn’t offensive at all, but in combination with other imagery ppl could take offence) it would still cause some raised eyebrows. And any number of other words when combined with guns could achieve the same reaction from some.

No one knows what the outcome of the “investigation” will be, but something of that nature (the word “Infidel” printed in the shape of a firearm) is open to interpretation, and maybe that’s simply exactly what the individual wanted to have happen.

Stop trying to state that there’s absolutely zero reason for anyone to question it. We all know what the ink guidelines/policies are for CAF members and if something is towing the line in some fashion and it gets noticed, well, then that’s on the host to explain.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Is infidel a word only followers of Islam are allowed to use?

If an Islam practitioner uses it then they're pious, if I use it I'm Islamophobic?

I'm pretty sure the origins of Infidel is Christianity, am I wrong?


Why is infidel in the shape of a gun considered racist and Islamophobic?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 16:49:26 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Tcm621

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Is infidel a word only followers of Islam are allowed to use?

If an Islam practitioner uses it then they're pious, if I use it I'm Islamophobic?

I'm pretty sure the origins of Infidel is Christianity, am I wrong?


Why is infidel in the shape of a gun considered racist and Islamophobic?

It is derived from the Latin infidelis which simply means not faithful. Over time, it had become a word lobbied at anyone who doesn't share what you consider the true faith. The Arabic is Kafir. Muslims have a bunch of different types of infidels like Dahriya(athiest) and Murtad (apostate). To call someone a takfir seems to be like calling someone a heretic.

Why it is racist and Islamophobic? Because it is 2019, I guess? It very well be an expression of hatred of Muslims but there is no reason it has to be.

Offline Colin P

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I can't ever recall a Christian using it to describe others, generally they say: Non-believer, non-Christian, agnostic or Atheist depending on the other persons position.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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There was a T-shirt I wanted in 2006 that was similar to a well known sports logo that said “Major League Infidel”. It was discontinued so as to not offend the Afghans.
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Offline Cloud Cover

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I can't ever recall a Christian using it to describe others, generally they say: Non-believer, non-Christian, agnostic or Atheist depending on the other persons position.
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Offline Colin P

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Actually few Christians ever disparage non-believers in front of me. I don't doubt there are some, but in general they are far more polite than the Atheists are about Christians.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Actually few Christians ever disparage non-believers in front of me. I don't doubt there are some, but in general they are far more polite than the Atheists are about Christians.

I think it depends on the Christians you hang around with.  I've personally been told I was a godless heathen that was going to hell by a Christian, and a number of similar insults along that vein by other so called Christians.  They weren't even particularly the fire and brimstone type, but those are probably the worst examples.

My personal observation is that people that are generally pretty strident about criticizing your belief frequently stray far from the actual beliefs of their faith (such as the Beattitudes). That seems to be independent of the religion, so more of a human behaviour thing I guess. But you only really remember the small number of arseclowns that you had a bad interaction with, and not the thousands of times where nothing really happened. 

Offline Harris

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Re: Meanwhile back at the perpetually offended tent
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2019, 18:01:46 »
I assume that, as we speak, there are legal defence teams scanning the internet for photos of Senior Officers in the CAF wearing the (almost) ubiquitous 'Infidel' morale patch on their combat uniforms...

Getting a list of everyone who bought these would likely help: http://www.cpgear.com/search/results?query=infidel&commit=search
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Online mariomike

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Re: Meanwhile back at the perpetually offended tent
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2019, 18:22:38 »
Getting a list of everyone who bought these would likely help: http://www.cpgear.com/search/results?query=infidel&commit=search

I like the "optional velcro" part. :)

Offline Nuggs

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I can't ever recall a Christian using it to describe others, generally they say: Non-believer, non-Christian, agnostic or Atheist depending on the other persons position.
In memory of my late grandmother, I'd like to add heathen to the list, it was her favourite.

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Offline FSTO

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Why do reporters screw themselves when they make stupid comments like "tattoo in the shape of an AK47 Assault Rifle. These idiots wouldn't know an AK if someone butt stroke him.

About the tattoo on its own? Much ado about nothing to me.

In fact, how about we get rid of all religion from the CAF? It would be interesting to hear the responses to this from all corners of the political spectrum.

Offline Target Up

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Other than it being a just plain goofy design for a tat, at the end of the day it's just a word. One that was used by Christian knights to describe the Saracen armies about 900 years ago.
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Online mariomike

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In fact, how about we get rid of all religion from the CAF? It would be interesting to hear the responses to this from all corners of the political spectrum.

See also,

Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society 
https://navy.ca/forums/index.php?topic=25815.0
25 pages.

Offline PPCLI Guy

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Why do reporters screw themselves when they make stupid comments like "tattoo in the shape of an AK47 Assault Rifle. These idiots wouldn't know an AK if someone butt stroke him.

About the tattoo on its own? Much ado about nothing to me.

In fact, how about we get rid of all religion from the CAF? It would be interesting to hear the responses to this from all corners of the political spectrum.

If the same tattoo, in the same shape, said frig Christ, would you all be okay with it?  Can I have that tattooed on my forearm?  and walk around in public?  Just asking
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Offline ballz

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If the same tattoo, in the same shape, said frig Christ, would you all be okay with it?  Can I have that tattooed on my forearm?  and walk around in public?  Just asking

I'd think you were an idiot and if that were in any way comparable you might have a point, but the tattoo doesn't say "frig Allah."

Let's not pretend that there is not a faction of Islam that wants to bring death upon the infidels of the world, and have tried , and are still trying. Giving a big "frig you" to those who wish to commit genocide against you, your family, and your culture harm is quite different from "frig Christ" or "frig Allah."

I don't know this particular sailor's history but it's even more true for those who have fought overseas against Islamist extremists. When your enemy wants to kill you because you are an infidel, it's only natural to develop a sardonic sense of humour over something like this.

I don't see how this is any different from homosexuals embracing the word "faggot" as middle finger to the homophobic among us. If a gay person had "faggot" tattoo'd on their forearm, I might find it distasteful but I 1) wouldn't be offended; and 2) am in no place to judge.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 00:35:19 by ballz »
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Offline Colin P

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Considering there was an active contingent of said Muslims trying to kill CF personal in Afghanistan, then I would say wearing the word is a way of saying 'eff you" for trying to kill me or my comrades.

Offline Brihard

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And there are also many Muslims that we were fighting alongside, in the ANA. There are Muslims serving in our own ranks. There are Muslims in the ranks of countries we are allied with.

Pretending the tattoo is anything other than a middle finger to Islam is silly, so let’s dispense with the notion. It is what it is. I remember when the infidel shirts and hats and patches got cool for a while at the height of the global war on terror. Nobody expects aggressive young men in their twenties to be the pinnacle of taste, and that’s fine. A tattoo though? Really?

The question then is does or could it reflect poorly on the CAF. The sailor in question will, I’m sure, have a definitive answer in due course and I suspect he won’t like it. Given the dress regs covering tattoos that I posted earlier, at that juncture the individual will probably have no excuse any better than “yup, I was in fact that dumb”. When we join the CAF we choose to know and to follow its rules.
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Offline ballz

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Pretending the tattoo is anything other than a middle finger to Islam is silly, so let’s dispense with the notion.

I don't know the guy, maybe he does hate all of Islam, maybe he's a crap stain, I tend to make that judgement about people with trashy tattoos.... but I disagree with your sentiment. Criticism, middle fingers, etc. toward Islamist extremists does not necessarily extend to all Muslims. This is the root of this Islamaphobia BS being pushed by those who wish to divide us into little tribes, that somehow we can't criticize the extreme elements of Islam without that extending to all Muslims and being meant to hurt all Muslims, as if they are a homogeneous group. And society is quickly falling for it.
Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

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If the same tattoo, in the same shape, said frig Christ, would you all be okay with it?  Can I have that tattooed on my forearm?  and walk around in public?  Just asking

No, see my post about 99,9% .....there is no debate on that, or"f" anyone's deity.

And if you are a civi you can have whatever you want.....being a moron isn't illegal. (though we all know it should be)
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Offline FSTO

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If the same tattoo, in the same shape, said frig Christ, would you all be okay with it?  Can I have that tattooed on my forearm?  and walk around in public?  Just asking

Does the word infidel specifically call out Allah, or Mohammad? No.

But if it did say screw Christ, I'd be okay with it because its just a word after all.

Offline Chief Engineer

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According to social media member was in Afghanistan in the Army and was involved in a IED attack that killed friends, apparently the tattoo was an attempt to deal with his PTSD sometime later CT'd to the navy. He regrets the tattoo. The guy who went out of his way to take his picture and post on twitter is well known social media "warrior" https://twitter.com/robhutten. He outed the member and tagged his ship's name. The backlash against him was significant and he's now taken the tweet down but not before tagging Antifa and other groups. He's not really sorry.
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